Author Topic: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp  (Read 762 times)

brw316

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Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« on: June 10, 2022, 09:38:07 am »
Please use this thread for feedback pertaining to the Kheldian Revamp, now on PTS!

Doomrider

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2022, 10:28:05 am »
Gravimetric Emanation is still a selectable power (@ Level 12) in the respec window. Is this intended? Or is it in fact supposed to be free after choosing Dark Nova and reaching level 12?

From the patch notes:
"Dark Nova now comes with two free muti-form powers, Dark Detonation (awarded upon obtaining Dark Nova) and Gravimetric Emanation (awarded at level 12 or higher after obtaining Dark Nova).  Both of these powers are usable in their original form."

Quinch

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2022, 12:53:56 pm »
After a brief test, I'm not really fond of some of the changes - Solar and Dwarf flare having been merged into one power eliminates the double-stomp, which is a bit of a staple of Kheldian gameplay.

SmallMedium

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2022, 09:41:06 pm »
Gravimetric Emanation is still a selectable power (@ Level 12) in the respec window. Is this intended? Or is it in fact supposed to be free after choosing Dark Nova and reaching level 12?

From the patch notes:
"Dark Nova now comes with two free muti-form powers, Dark Detonation (awarded upon obtaining Dark Nova) and Gravimetric Emanation (awarded at level 12 or higher after obtaining Dark Nova).  Both of these powers are usable in their original form."

This is also true of Luminous Detonation for Peacebringers.

GeneralIdiot

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2022, 10:31:03 am »
Small bug? during character creation, the old shapeshift powers still appear in the power lists. Nova form powers in the primary and dwarf form in the secondary. These do not appear in the list for either set once ingame however in the respec screen they again show up in the lists but cannot be selected.

A minor text error on Bright Nova, it says "Additionally, 2 ranged attacks will be granted to your human and Nova form arsonals, Proton Scatter immediatley and Luminous Detonation at level 12." That word is spelled wrong, it should be 'arsenals'.

Shining Shield suppresses correctly as far as I can tell, though the implementation is a little odd to me - it keeps its endurance cost while suppressed but grants a recovery buff when in Nova form equivalent to slightly less than its base endurance cost. I assume actually making it cost no endurance directly when shapeshifted is one of those CoH spaghetti code things that's not at all as simple as it sounds and this is the next best and much more doable solution. Does result in it still costing a small amount of endurance until you get to higher levels and have an SO or IO endurance reduction in it, at which point it may actually result in a very small net positive endurance gain.

Luminous Detonation appears as a selectable power until I reach the level at which it's automatically granted, at which point it's given to me without even needing to train up. I assume this is working as intended. When training to 12 it shows as already taken, as it should.

A question relating to that - Is it possible to make it such that you can still take Proton Scatter and/or Luminous Detonation as standalone powers if you don't take Nova Form? Human only Kheldian builds are a thing some people do and I'd hate to see them killed off by powers they formerly had being made exclusive to taking the forms. Sure you can take them and just never use them but taking powers you intend to never use always feels wrong to me.

Enhancements placed in human form powers appear to be correctly transferring through to nova form equivalents, at least with Gleaming Blast which was the one I specifically tested but I assume if one works they likely all do.

Noticed in testing the above that in the combat log the Nova version of Glinting Eye is just 'Nova Glinting Eye' while all the original powers use their existing names. Glinting Eye should probably refer to itself as 'Bright Nova Glinting Eye' or maybe just 'Bright Nova Eye' while in Nova form for consistency.

Probably unrelated to this revamp but Inner Light amusingly refers to itself twice in the combat log by producing the following message:
"You tap into your inner light with your Inner Light and are more accurate and more deadly for a short while."
Could probably be reduced to just one mention of the power name.


More anecdotally, the goal of making slotting simpler? Mission accomplished. And the buffs to the early ranged attacks make it feel a little more powerful though personally I would maybe have upped Gleaming Blast to 10 second recharge and increased damage accordingly to give the archetype a proper T1/T2/T3 progression of attacks like other powersets have. 2/6/10 second recharges for the first three single target blasts matches what Archery has, for example.

That said, I have a feeling the same thing I typically experience with Kheldians before is still going to be there - they feel incomplete and underpowered until the moment I have enough IOed recharge for perma Light Form, or Eclipse on Warshades. The power gap that exists between a Kheldian on SOs and a Kheldian on IOs is way more noticable than for some other archetypes and I don't see this revamp changing that at all. Not that it was meant to either from what I can see but it's perhaps something to consider while you're looking at Kheldians in general. Game's not balanced around IOs, I know, but sometimes I think it does need to be balanced with some consideration toward them.

Anyway, wishful thinking aside I'll get to testing the higher level stuff later when it's not 2am and I'm less tired.

SmallMedium

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2022, 09:36:33 pm »
Having played a bit with my Warshade I'm pretty happy with the changes.  The process of going through a respec is a bit daunting; I don't just need to worry about what each power does, I also need to remember which are relevant in each form.  This is probably less of an issue for players who are levelling under the new system, or have spent enough time with it to have that memorized, but it's going to be tough on existing Khelds when the issue releases. One thing that would help (and I may just put this together myself, time permitting) is a chart listing all of the powers with columns showing their Nova/Dwarf equivalents.

As far as actual play goes I'm enjoying it.  Paradoxically the ease of shapeshifting means I'm spending less time in the forms.  The way I used to play my Warshade I would only be human form in combat long enough to drop a Mire or Eclipse before shapeshifting.  Now human form feels like something I can actually spend time in.

I've spent less time with my Peacebringer, so I don't have anything specific to add there beyond a generic thumbs up. (Or claws up? Tentacles up? You get the picture.)

GeneralIdiot

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2022, 05:11:43 am »
Paradoxically the ease of shapeshifting means I'm spending less time in the forms.  The way I used to play my Warshade I would only be human form in combat long enough to drop a Mire or Eclipse before shapeshifting.  Now human form feels like something I can actually spend time in.

This is something I noticed too, even playing at low level with only Nova. When actively using human form for more than just refreshing a buff doesn't require a ten second break to reactivate toggles I end up using it a lot more.

Lazarillo

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2022, 05:24:10 pm »
I started a new Warshade on the test server yesterday, have been playing the Kheldian arcs, bumping up a few levels, doing the next, etc, so I haven't been following the leveling curve exactly, but have been hoping it's maybe a decent approximation.  I just hit finished the pre-level-20 arcs, and so with Dwarf on the horizon, my general take on the low level experience:

  • It's pretty good, overall!  "Fun" might be subjective, but it feels important to note that, well, I think it is.  It has a "smoother" feel than previous experience with Warshades, but it still feels like a Warshade.  To me, that's a pretty good sign of a target getting hit.  Like most low-level Warshades, I'm spending most of my time in Nova, occasionally dropping out to trade some offense for defense (or opening from Human to use Gravity Well starting in the late teens), and the toggle suppression makes this a very easy transition.
  • "Real numbers" on powers aren't exactly perfect.  Not sure if much can be done there (or should).  But checking them always gets the human form numbers.  There doesn't seem to be any way to see stats for Powers when shapeshifted, or how Enhancements will affect them.
  • That said, tying powers together is nice for keybinds and for "prework" on the forms.  I'm going into Dwarf territory already with most of my attacks slotted, so the feel of "take it at 20, it'll be useful by the 30, maybe" is gone.  Really liking that.  Similarly, by old Goto-Tray form binds are pretty much obsolete, since I'm using the same powers across all forms.  In this case, that obsolence really feels like a feature.
  • Probably the biggest beef at this point is the way Powers with significant effect changes between forms are looking to work.  Gravitic Emanation is primarily a control power in human form, and has the piddly damage and long recharge to match.  In Nova form, it's purely a damaging power, which means its Recharge is lower, but if it's used while in human form, you're pretty much locked out of one of your two main Nova AoEs for an entire fight, and that can be a little bit rough.  It's also going to require a lot of Frankenslotting to really get the sort of mileage that having both of the cone powers in the current "live" form does.  While it's nice to have to slot fewer powers, in this case it feels more like having to choose between two fairly key ones.  Mire looks like it may have similar issues (albeit not so much when it comes to slotting), though I haven't seen how that goes in practice yet, so we'll see on that front.

More commentary to come, I'm sure.  But that's my "first 20 levels" assessment.  Overall positive, but Gravitic Emanation might need to be looked at a little more thoroughly.

Microcosm

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2022, 10:07:53 pm »
Gravitic Emanation might need to be looked at a little more thoroughly.

QFT here. Gravitic Emanation is a key power, as is Dark Nova Emanation. You have to basically choose between the two with this change because the human version causes the power to recharge so slowly.

Some interesting changes, mostly positive (suppression very positive), but here are some thoughts:

My other feedback is that I feel like pool powers should function in forms, not just suppress. The problem is that a Human, which can run several defense toggles and have Eclipse ends up being more survivable than Dwarf with a single break free, which can't get the defense bonuses, making dwarf still somewhat useless. Dwarf's use then becomes just as a mez shield, which can be taken care of with a break free, clarion or getting a buff from certain teammates. It's also annoying to have to detoggle a form just to fire off Hasten when you no longer need to do so for Eclipse. And finally, why should a human Kheldian be able to apply tactics to teammates but a Dwarf cannot?

I think the PB side is a little worse off, as Light Form gets some mez protection, further diminishing the value of Dwarf, and as mentioned above, you lose the ability to double stomp.

Will keep playing with it. I think I'm seeing some weird proc behavior because of the shared powers, but need to confirm.

EDIT: Just want to add that Gravity Well has a similar problem to Gravitic Emanation. Using it in human form locks you out of Dwarf Smite for the 20s cooldown. Not the end of the world for IO builds, but not great for SO builds.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2022, 07:06:53 pm by Microcosm »

GeneralIdiot

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2022, 07:26:15 am »
EDIT: Just want to add that Gravity Well has a similar problem to Gravitic Emanation. Using it in human form locks you out of Dwarf Smite for the 20s cooldown. Not the end of the world for IO builds, but not great for SO builds.

Incandescent Strike on Peacebringer has the same issue. I kinda feel like a lot of this revamp has been designed with the assumption of a certain amount of recharge slotted which most people might not have on SOs alone. Which is only going to further exacerbate the power difference between a Kheldian on SOs and one on IOs, and it was already bigger than it should be relative to some other archetypes. If nothing else it makes using those powers kind of annoying at early levels when you might not have the slots to spare for some recharge.

Also a more nitpicky thing - White Dwarf has the same spelling mistake I pointed out before on Bright Nova, and a couple others besides. That and the last sentence of the description about being limited to melee attacks only is straight up false as Dwarf now has access to two ranged powers too. That whole description could honestly use some proofreading.

Also when playing at 20-22 I had a lot of the same feeling I typically get trying to play triform before - too many powers, not enough slots. That'll even out with more levels but right when you get Dwarf it hits real hard only have enough for two or three slots in all the powers you want more like five or six in. And it's still not as bad as having a million extra shapeshift powers on live I suppose.

When shapeshifted the three human form shield toggles are, with one +3 endredux SO in them, costing 0.19/s and granting 0.16/s. Before I put the SO in they were 0.26/s cost and 0.22/s refund. Good that it scales with the enhancement now but the scaling might need looked at if it's supposed to equal the cost because it's not doing that.

Also I know mez protection on Kheldians is a huge can of worms and not the point of this revamp but a lot of the time after getting Dwarf I'm basically locked in that form because of stray mez powers that start popping up on almost every mob in the 20s. And I still think Kheldians need to have the same mag 2 mez protection Arachnos Soldiers get in their first level passive power, just so any random mez doesn't completely disable two out of three forms but at the same time it's still low enough that the stronger protection in Dwarf form doesn't become redundant. For Peacebringers maybe remove it from Light Form if (and only if, please) it's added to the passive.

Microcosm

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2022, 06:13:06 pm »
Also I know mez protection on Kheldians is a huge can of worms and not the point of this revamp but a lot of the time after getting Dwarf I'm basically locked in that form because of stray mez powers that start popping up on almost every mob in the 20s. And I still think Kheldians need to have the same mag 2 mez protection Arachnos Soldiers get in their first level passive power, just so any random mez doesn't completely disable two out of three forms but at the same time it's still low enough that the stronger protection in Dwarf form doesn't become redundant. For Peacebringers maybe remove it from Light Form if (and only if, please) it's added to the passive.

Signed.

Lazarillo

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2022, 12:36:48 am »
Well, I did not expect it to take a whole month for me to do some more playing with this, but I did get back to my previous character, played around with it a bit more, and can say that, having worked in Dwarf, and SOs, it's bloomed very quickly.  Here this character is in the mid-20s where a Kheldian would normally be be trying to find a way to slot everything and make Dwarf useful, and I'm hot-swapping forms multiple times throughout fights, taking full advantage of each one as needed.  This is, legit, how Kheldians should feel and I'm having a pretty great time with it.

The update to Gravitic Emanation helped, and Gravity Well doesn't feel too bad, for me, just because I have access to the ranged attacks in Dwarf form (in fact, my usual fighting habits involve shifting to Dwarf form once I get some aggro, then briefly back down to Human anyway when Gravity Well finishes recharging, because that Hold is just too useful).  Mire, in practice, didn't turn out to be too bad, either.

My general mission picks haven't had me dealing with too much mez-related frustration so far, so I can't comment there; I certainly wouldn't mind some SoA level protection in the passive (it'd help at low levels, especially), but so far, Dwarf is sufficient for me.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2022, 02:03:23 am by Lazarillo »

RandomRabbit

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Re: Consolidated Feedback: Kheldian Revamp
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2022, 03:09:22 pm »
Having toyed around with warhsade some and a thought came to me.

So:  Gravitic Emanation, Gravimetric Snare, and Gravity well all share a feature insomuch that they are control powers in human form but damage powers in another form.

This can create a mild issue because stuff like Gravitic Emanation do atrocious damage in human form but great damage in nova form.

So now I need to choose between making the power useful to my nova or my human when previous I could slot two things independently (WHich was more of a curse then a blessing)

I really like where you went with the combining powers up but I think a single tweak can make this a lot more happier by allowing us the combined powers and allowing us to slot for control without nerfing other forms:

When calculating the enhanced damage of one of the 3 above powers in non-human form: take the higher of the control multiplier or the damage multiplier and use that.  Do not stack them.

Exmaple:  Let' say I got gravity well.  I got it slotted for 1.75x hold duration.  In human form the hold duration is 1.75x but when I swap to dwarf form it's damage gets a 1.75x multiplier.  If I franken slot it and get 1.4x damage and 1.3x hold, I'll only get 1.4x damage in dwarf form