City of Heroes: Rebirth Forums
Development => General Suggestions and Feedback => Topic started by: Draggynn on July 30, 2021, 11:33:42 am
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This thread is to discuss the economy changes currently on the test server: https://forum.cityofheroesrebirth.com/index.php/topic,145.0.html
Note that this is only the first patch of the economy/grind overhaul and there are more changes coming.
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I'm waiting for the inspiration bug to be fixed before digging into things in more detail, but some initial thoughts which may change with testing:
- The enhancement purchasing influence sinks aren't great, but they're the only ones we have at the moment. Hopefully there are other sinks being added, but otherwise I'm wary of removing them since inflation was a very serious problem on live. Our smaller and friendlier player base appears to have saved us from this issue initially but I think it is important to have more ways to take inf out of the economy. I can only give away so much to new players who might not come back.
- going off Psycho Cop's post on discord, the influence costs are no longer round numbers: 28,125,000; 16,750,000. I think here ease of use should trump exact balancing. At least an even million, or better yet just keep it a multiple of 5 and call those 30 and 15.
- The cost reduction for purple IOs from empyrean merits feels too extreme. It's effectively setting the rate at 1/night from itrials, which is maybe the intention. But I liked that they were something that you had to work for. I'm not sure where that sweet spot is, may be1/2 nights, so make them 12 and 15? I would be interested in knowing what the desired earn rate is of the rebalance. I recognize my play style is quite a bit different from most, but I would like a reason to keep playing a character as long as possible, and the grind of completing multiple builds was one way to prolong the sense of progress on a character. I would also mention that although you can always further lower prices, it can be very hard to raise them without drawing anger from the player base so I would caution, at least on live, starting with a smaller step and then increasing if it's deemed insufficient, rather than starting with a large one that is regretted later. (Obviously on the test server, you can start with the extreme step to get a reaction and then scale it back)
- I'm not entirely clear on what: "Reward Choices for completing Incarnate content now offers a choice for a random Purple Recipe instead of Super Inspirations when receiving a Very Rare reward." Does this mean that instead of a VR salvage from an itrial I can choose a Purple recipe, because that's an awesome change! (I would fully support rolling this out to the other reward tables as well maybe gold/silver/bronze roll for rare, uncommon, common?). Does this also apply to the reward tables at the end of DA arcs? Haven't run them often enough to know how this work, or what the rarity break down is.
- the 4x increase in PvP IOs I hope is relative to the 1% at shutdown, not the 6% currently on Rebirth. Because at 24%, I could get a PvP IO every 5 minutes on my farm rotation which feels a little too easy.
- love the idea of gladiator merits! (As well as awarding gladiator merits for completing the zone mini games, I think it would also be good for the mini game rewards to be purchasable with gladiator merits) Would be nice if defeating the RV AVs, or capturing a pillbox/defeating a turret also awarded merits. Maybe a small chance for merits to drop from PvE enemies in PvP zones as well, or from running PvP missions
- I'm also unclear on what Very Rare attuned enhancement are, but I guess I will figure that out on test. If it hasn't been done, probably a good idea to award everyone on test super packs to test these things.
- I understand the desire to encourage PvP, and agree that PvP IOs should be easier to earn through PvP than other methods, but the cost through other resources feel too high, especially compared with the dramatic reduction in Purple prices. (If the astral/emp costs are raised, then at least the differential between the two won't feel as massive). Given how opposed much of the player base tends to be to PvP, I think there ought to be a more reasonable non PvP path. If gladiator merits are added to some of the PvP zone missions, maybe that helps reduce some of the issue by allowing some people to PvE in a PvP impactful way.
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Yeah, there are lots of interesting things proposed here. The Gladiator Merits as well as the vig/rog merits I am very excited about. I like the idea of PvPIO's being cheaper through gladiator merits, but still accessible through other merit types. I really like the idea of vig/rog merits and the option to purchase superpacks with them, again with the cost being different based on the type of merit being used.
I have mentioned this many times before, and this is probably a future update, but I would love to be able to purchase signature summons and have long thought the best option for those is using hero/vig/rog/vill merits. With the merit type spent determining what kind of summon you purchase. Hero merits get you Sister Psyche, Vig merits get you Manticore, Rog merits get you Sirocco and vill merits get you black scorpion (as examples).
I also am uncertain about about the proposed drop rates of PvPIO's in PvP. I agree with Draggynn that 24% drop rate is crazy. Honestly I think actually lowering, or even eliminating, PvPIO drops entirely and allowing players to obtain them through gladiator merits might be a better option. Not certain about that though and am curious what others think.
In regards to the proposed "sweet spot" for obtaining purps/PvPIO's I think that 2 every 5 days (a day being about 3 hours of play in a 24 hour period) would be perfect, if that is too hard of a ratio then 1 every 3 days. Obtaining 2 every 5 days means that you can get a complete 6 set with just over 2 weeks of "grinding" (estimating as someone who plays 21 hours every week, calculated by playing 3 hours every night). Even a more "casual" player (estimating as someone who plays 9 hours per week, calculated by playing 3 hours for 3 nights per week) will still get a complete 6 set every 5 weeks (little over a month). Even someone who only plays once a week (3 hours per week) would still get a complete 6 set in 3.5 months. I think these numbers keeps "blinging out" a char a long term goal to work towards while not being essentially impossible like the old rates were. As I remember the math on live you would get a *single* purp/PvP after 2 whole months of grinding.
We do need a good inf sink however these are tricky. It needs to be something that is an ongoing cost, it needs to be worth purchasing (or else people won't use it) but can't be so good that it becomes "mandatory" and locks out newsupes that won't be able to afford it right away. I admit I can't actually think of anything right now.
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While exemplaring, level 50 characters receive a chance for level 50 recipe rewards for defeating enemies. So when im on my 50 and i team with a lvl 25 character i will be getting lvl 50 drops? But not the lvl 50 salvage? I prefer to get the lvl 25 salvage since it is not in abundance on the market.
Reward Choices for completing Incarnate content now offers a choice for a random Purple Recipe instead of Super Inspirations when receiving a Very Rare reward. This means if a new lvl 50 runs through all the incarnate arcs, then they would have the opportunity for 8 purple recipes (six, belladonna, heather, mu, duncan, solaris, dream doc x2)?
Hamidon V Seed of Hamidon. Seed is cross faction and is more likely to be ran because it has a wider availability. That being said a hamidon enhancement hasnt been highly sought after since the early days.
Gladiator merits. I would like to see these used to purchase PVP io recipes.
Super/Dual/Team inspirations. Good now i can start unloading these from my email into the market.
Brainstorm Ideas. I always loved these while back on live. I could use them to create Rare arcane salvage while in my base at a crafting table. If anything having these being a reward from super packs will help with market salvage availability.
Hero & Villain Super Packs and Vigilante & Rogue Super Packs will be purchasable with Alignment Merits. Remove any and all Alignment/Morality Tip lockout timers. Does this mean i could do 6 hero morality missions in a day and get a H/V super pack? Or Does it mean I do 5 hero alignment tips then get a hero morality and get a hero merit then the ability to get tips is still locked out for 20 hours?
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Reward Choices for completing Incarnate content now offers a choice for a random Purple Recipe instead of Super Inspirations when receiving a Very Rare reward. This means if a new lvl 50 runs through all the incarnate arcs, then they would have the opportunity for 8 purple recipes (six, belladonna, heather, mu, duncan, solaris, dream doc x2)?
This may just be if you choose the incarnate component and get the very rare roll table? If someone tests this, report back (I'm waiting for the inspiration crash fix)
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Reward Choices for completing Incarnate content now offers a choice for a random Purple Recipe instead of Super Inspirations when receiving a Very Rare reward. This means if a new lvl 50 runs through all the incarnate arcs, then they would have the opportunity for 8 purple recipes (six, belladonna, heather, mu, duncan, solaris, dream doc x2)?
I interpret this as "get a random purple" is one of the choices at the end where you normally are choosing between incarnate rewards or super inspirations. I could be wrong as I haven't done it. I actually would love to do an iTrial on PST so we can know for certain.
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As a relatively casual player and dedicated altaholic who isn't flush with Influence, I'm disappointed in the increased cost of the attuned IOs, specifically the Overwhelming Force as it's literally a game-changer for certain builds and only attainable a few weeks a year.
I understand the desire to regulate the prices and, frankly, 1 million, as they currently are, is quite cheap for such a useful enhancement. Would it be possible to include Overwhelming Force enhancements in the Super Packs and make them convertable as a compromise?
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Alright, more of the economy rework is now available on the test server. Some thoughts on purple recipe availability in particular:
As I look at the changes coming through to progression for RI2, I am starting to get concerned. I think many of us play on rebirth because we want and appreciate a slower rate of progression where fully enhancing your character is something that takes time and that you work towards. Not something that can just be accomplished in a week and the character thrown on the pile of alts you'll never revisist.
Obviously things are still being adjusted and the new purple drop rate is far from final. Everyone seems to agree that a drop rate of 1 purple every 5 minutes is too extreme. However, not having a clear explanation of what the goal is, I'm left uncertain if I should be arguing about the goal or whether the implementation meets the goal.
One thing that I like about the current implementation of purple drops on the live server is that they're rare enough that people get excited about getting one. I was recently talking to a Rebirther who had taken a hiatus on Homecoming, and noted that there purples were so common no one ever remarked on getting a purple recipe. I think keeping a sense of excitement to purple recipes is valuable. I think that there is definitely room to increase the drop rate (and access) from the current rate (where a player may go months without seeing a purple drop) and still keep a sense of excitement about purples. That would be my goal if I were selecting a criteria: Increase the purple drop rate and accessibility while still keeping excitement over getting a purple recipe.
Aside from increasing the drop rate, purples have also just become easier to obtain on the test server. They've been added to super packs, had their cost drastically decreased for empyrean merits (more on this later), had an option added for astral merits, been added as a reward option to the very rare incarnate component table, have the chance to drop for lvl 50 characters when exemplared, and are a reward for an Masters of Run. The impact of all of these changes on the purple supply is going to be virtually impossible to gauge on the test server. I therefore would caution strongly towards making more minor changes that can be increased if the desired effect is not achieved, rather than sweeping changes that potentially break things and need to be rolled back.
I am also concerned about the drastically reduced empyrean cost of purple recipes. A typical night (2 hours) of running incarnate trials awards ~6 empyrean merits and ~30 astrals. So on the test server that's a guaranteed 1.66 purple recipes a night (combined with increased chance of a recipe dropping during the trial and a chance to claim one as a VR reward). This is compared with the current rate of 0.2/night (30 emps for a purple would take 5 nights). An increase of 8x on that front feels pretty extreme and again would be hard to judge the impact it would have on itrial attendance. (Does this drive more interest because purples are much easier to get this way than any other way in the game, or less interest because it takes fewer itrials for players to accomplish their goals?). Although I'm not opposed to making purples cheaper, an order of magnitude change whose impact really can't be tested seems ill advised.
Edit: merits prices just got updated so a night of itrials now nets you: 0.83 Purples (6/12 emps and 30/90 astrals) so still a 4x increase although less drastic than before
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I also am concerned about how easy purples are to get. Thinking about it more after my previous posts here I'm leaning towards receiving a single purple for about 7 hours of playtime as the sweet spot. It makes them something to work towards, keeps them a big deal when you get one, but a player is still able to get a full set of 6 in just 3 weeks even if they only play 3 hours per day. Of course many of us play more then that and would probably grind them faster but that's okay too.
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Any future cases can be submitted in a form to help us catalog all the input we have been getting.
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeGOEFoSkwjQNsVcFjfFg36JOlFgITJsqXkbyHX06niLOUxPw/viewform (https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeGOEFoSkwjQNsVcFjfFg36JOlFgITJsqXkbyHX06niLOUxPw/viewform)
edit: All who have already commented are encouraged to submit their input to the form.
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As the discussion continues to progress on discord I think a lot of good points have been made. In particular, trying to make Purple IOs abundant enough that they end up on the market may prove challenging since people have such a potential to hoard them. This makes the goal seem that it may prove difficult to achieve without accidentally trivializing Purple IOs.
We have also had several players speak up to say that they are not opposed to purple drop rate on live and that adding easier and different ways for people to earn purples makes the drop rate less relevant, and that we should wait and see the impact of this easier access to purples before modifying the drop rate. I have more thoughts on the purple drop rate, but for this post at least will focus on earning rate through merits at itrials.
We typically run two hours of itrials every night on Rebirth, so typically two hours of itrials seems like a good baseline to look at. Originally the rate was 0.1 purple/night (6 merits per night for a 60 empyrean recipe). Then in Ri1 it became 0.2 purples/night (6 merits for a 30 empyrean recipe). As I mentioned in my edit to my previous post the current change is a jump to 0.8 purples/night (6/12 empyreans = 0.5 + 30/90 astrals = 0.33 = 0.83). I think almost everyone would agree that the Ri1 change did not feel like it fundamentally changed the way players thought about and used purple recipes, so clearly there is room to increase the earn rate without fundamentally altering the game. A 4x increase still feels significant, although it will be hard to gauge the impact until a month after ri2 drops, I suspect. (I think no one knew lowering the cost to 30 emps would feel so minor).
I'm going to do some brainstorming here just to try to hash out some ideas:If we wanted to limit the change to another 2x change, for 0.4 purples/night, what might that look like? I think we definitely want to make their empyrean cost cheaper. If we made them 20 empyreans, then we'd have to make purples cost 300 astrals to hit that target which feels too large (6/20+30/300 = 0.4), but any less of a reduction to emp cost feels like lip service. So If we were willing to up the earn rate to 0.5 purples/night we could keep purples at 20 empyreans, and astrals would only need to go up to 150. Alternatively a 20/90 emp/astral cost (keeping the astral cost where it is on test), would be 0.63 purple/night a 3x increase, but now you make more progress towards purples with astrals (0.33) every night than you do with emps (0.3), which seems incorrect. Another possibility, at least worth considering, is to not add an astral cost, and then we could lower to 12 or 15 emps without needing to worry about the additional astral earn rate. I do like having an astral earn rate though to make those astrals more useful.
This has me liking the 20/150 split, which makes empyreans 7.5x more valuable than astrals. and a 2.5x increase from what's currently on live. If a player attends all 5 weeknight itrials, they'll now get 2.5 purples instead of 1. That's a change that, to me, feels impactful without feeling radical. There's room to further reduce costs in future issues but seems unlikely to be so severe that we'll want to roll it back. This also makes Purple Recipes cheaper to earn for players not doing itrials (who will also have the added benefit of getting more emps for rewards than they used to from other Ri2 changes.)
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Alignment Merits Overhaul
When Going Rogue was introduced it added the Alignment system to the game. In addition to straight up allowing turncoat / redemption stories of Heroes becoming Villains(H/V) and vice versa, it added two in-between steps, Rogue & Vigilante (R/V), which had the special advantage of playing in both CoH and CoV areas. In order to give the system a meaningful choice this was contrasted with giving those that remained one of the pure alignments access to unique vendors.
This meaningful choice has been removed on Almost Tested. Other balance way out of whack is the alignment vendors themselves are now far inferior sources for what they were previously coveted for. Example: Previously confirming a R/V alignment granted 60 reward merits, now it will be 1 R/V alignment merit. A purple costs 300 reward merits (5 old R/V moralities) or 20 alignment merits (20 H/V or new R/V moralities). The new R/V merits are a straight downgrade.
The original devs set the value of an alignment merit of at least 100 reward merits, sometimes a fair bit more with rounding down costs (LotG: Def/Rech = 150 reward merits or 1 alignment merit). This was already eroded with the previous merit cost reduction issue, though that was fair enough in bringing a bit of parity. Even if you halved their effective worth due to the 10->5 tip requirement you're looking at reward merit costs for purples/pvpios being ~75-100% too low (200% if you ignore or there wasn't an Inf cost) or alignment merit costs being that much too high.
Combine this with all the new streamlined ways to acquire purples / pvpios more efficiently elsewhere and the alignment vendors will be ignored except for a few orange recipes.
I don't have any suggestions for minor or moderate tweaks here, things are just too far out of alignment.
This needs to go back to the drawing board, and the first question answered should be "What gameplay reason would anyone have to stay a Hero / Villain now?"
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I think vig/rog merits are a good idea, however I absolutely do think there needs to be some distinction between the different merit types. Not just hero/vig/rog/vill but also reward, gladiator, emp and astral. Specifically there needs to be items unique to them that can only be purchased by them as well as price differences. For example making PvPIO's slightly less expensive when purchased with gladiator merits, though still accessible with other merit types, is a start. In regards to the 4 alignment merits I have long thought that making the signature summons purchasable with them would be a great idea. Though which summon you can purchase depends on the alignment, so vigs get Manticore, hero's get Sister Psyche, etc.
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Alignment Merits Overhaul
"What gameplay reason would anyone have to stay a Hero / Villain now?"
I think this is the fundamental question. Vigilantes and Rogues already get access to a whole other game of content which has actual game play advantages (patron power pools for heroes that switch, easier to earn merits from hero TFs for villains that switch, in addition to just generally more content available, and on our small server that means easier access to teams). If you choose not have this dual access, you were rewarded with hero/villain merits which were 1) more efficient, and 2) had access to rewards with those merits that Rogues and Vigilantes didn't to compensate. That reward is now being removed, so all Heroes and Villains get for remaining a hero or villain is access to less content.
This seems problematic. Just having different but equal parity rewards for Rogues/Vigilantes and Heroes/Villains still doesn't compensate for the effective penalty that Heroes and Villains have. The only reason to stay a Villain/Hero now is a character one and making that decision doesn't provide any compensation.
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Honestly, I'd like to see Alignment minimized in importance. I think at this point in the game's life (meaning, on this server with about 500 individual log-ins a week) Alignment arbitrarily barring characters from content that they would otherwise qualify for is destructive to the server.
While on live there may have been significant differences between the sides pre-Going Rogue, much of the content added with that expansion and after was cross alignment. Cimerora, the Rikti Warzone revamp, Dark Astoria, the Wards, all the Incarnate trials, TinPex, LGTF, etc are all activities where anyone can play together regardless of their alignment. Certainly, many of these tasks are wrapped in some bit of text that explains why the threat is so large that heroes and villains might work together, but I wonder... who really needs weak prose from a decade ago to tell them who their super-person is and why they make the choices that they do?
Certainly, I see value in carefully considering how and why certain decisions were made on live, but I question what value being a Vigilante has on Rebirth right now. I've played at least 15 characters up to 50+, none of them farmed. Many of them have changed alignment for various reasons, but I can't recall ever having one of my Vigilantes join a red-side team that wasn't doing Villain tips. Very little happens red-side, especially if you view our tiny server base in the scale of a global server population spread out over the 168 hours in a week.
However, I do see value in being a Rogue. There have been several times that I've brought Rogues over to do blue-side content. In fact, it's rare that any teaming that my Rogues have done hasn't been in the company of blue-siders because of the aforementioned lack of activity on red-side.
My point here is not to boost one Alignment over the other but rather to suggest that maybe all the Heroes could be treated like Vigilantes and the Villains treated like Rogues to even the playing field and allow our small community to play as broadly as they like. Why not de-couple the zones you play in and the content you can join from the arbitrary alignment system that the developers on live consistently worked AGAINST with the aforementioned open-play content of iTrials, DA, Cim, etc?
I'm not suggesting that Heroes can go get Villain contacts (though I'm not against that), but simply letting all characters, regardless of alignment, play on either side.
If people really need something special to hang their character's identity on in terms of being a Hero/Vigilante/Rogue/Villain that their own imagination can't supply, there are still the unique alignment powers, as well as each alignment having its own roster of tip missions. Others have suggested adding Signature summons for purchase and other perks.
Turning the tables on the premise that switching sides is so powerful on Rebirth, though, it is far easier for a new player to the server to make the argument that playing a Vigilante/Rogue is at a huge disadvantage given the current outsized purchasing power of Alignment Merits (particularly given the pile you can collect from the SSA's... provided you can sit through all the unskippable dialog/cut scenes).
That's certainly how I saw the disappointing economics of the game in April/May 2019 when I first logged onto Rebirth. Now with piles of Astrals, a fair number of Emps, and hoards of Purples stashed I no longer care very much about the Alignment Merits; but, if I came on new, now, I'd likely be so turned off by the emphasis on Alignment Merits that I'd probably just go log onto another CoH server.
Mind you, I'm well aware that there may be technical limitations that I'm wholly unaware of, but it seems like a simple solution to just let Villains and Heroes play one another's content, just like Vigilantes and Rogues already do.
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Personally I would prefer to see greater distinction between the 4 alignments rather then have them blended together. I have posted this before but have long had a dream of seeing the alignment system be expanded to something more similar to what we have goldside. In goldside, chars have 2 alignments, their regular alignment and their original alignment. As they go through the game if you cross alignments you can do "undercover work" for your original alignment. My idea is that all chars, even primal chars, have something similar.
All chars would have a public alignment, that is how the world currently views the char based on their actions (pretty much like standard alignments work now). Characters would also have a true alignment that is how the player views their own character. Unlike goldside "original" alignments a characters true alignment can be shifted/changed in some way. Like goldside as you do tasks based on your public alignment, you have special options to do undercover work based on your true alignment. So a public villain / true hero can report back to the Freedom Phalanx on the Recluse's activities in the Rogue Isles for example, and vice versa of course. This would provide more roleplay opportunities for those interested in such stuff and also breathe a bit of new life into older content. This idea obviously would be a ton of work and definitely be a long term plan but it is something I would love to see.
However this idea would only work so long as the alignments remain separated, blended alignments wouldn't make sense if "anyone" can jump between Paragon City and the Rogue Isles without any concern for alignment. I have also suggested having certain items only be purchasable with specific merit types, such as different signature summons based on alignment, and more stuff like that could be done but I think balancing it could be hard. How do you figure the cost of being able to join red/blue teams with merit purchasing power? That is why the Cryptic devs didn't have vig/rog merits. Thinking about it I think the true solution is to keep the purchasing power of hero/vig/rog/vill merits equal (though slightly different in what they can buy, such as signature summons) but to have the *content* be different.
The advantage of vig/rog's is their ability to join cross alignment teams. That gives them access to more content then hero/vills have. Trying to balance their access to extra content by limiting purchasing power is not easy, if possible. However if we instead limit vig/rog's access to some other form of content, it would be easier to balance out. Suddenly you're not trying to decide between being able to play cross faction content vs. the purchasing power of the rewards, you're choosing between cross faction content vs. true alignment content. It would also make sense from a lore perspective, if you're a vig/rog that "plays both sides" then you're not going to be trusted enough to perform highly sensitive missions.
The problem with this idea though is deciding what content should be blocked from the vigs/rogs? It does become a tough choice that would require a lot of discussion I think. The options I can think of are TF's, SSA's, PvP zones, and "some" story missions. Each has their own pros and cons that I'll need some time to think about however this idea is becoming big enough I think I should probably create a new thread.
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Yeah, I cannot get behind the idea of further fracturing the content available to individual characters by actually limiting what Vigilantes and Rogues can participate in. I will reiterate, we're talking about a player base of no more than 700 individual accounts logging in (how few actual human players is that actually, I wonder, given the number of multi-boxers?). If I divide 700 by the 168 hours in a week we get 4.16 accounts logged in at any particular hour. So, it's possible to have all four characters online under this system of further separating the Alignments be ineligible to do one another's content.
Of course, the server population is not evenly spread around the globe; but, even being on the west coast of the US makes the regular I Trials (the only I Trials run on the server, as far as I know) difficult for anyone working a 9-5, especially if they have a commute. The Monday and Tuesday 6pm Pacific start times would be a no go for me if I had to drive. On the other end of things, if I log in on a weeknight at 10 pm my time the thin roster of players is often skeletal, since 'prime time' has passed for those in the Central Time Zone and further east. I can only imagine that it's more challenging for the European and Asian players.
Setting aside the idea of making four little kiddie pools for people to play in, the bulk of your idea is pie in the sky, as far as I'm concerned. I can't imagine the amount of labor required to rework all four alignments, as well as gating off content, and adding moral decision points (both public and private) to every affected mission. Just writing all the flavor text and dialog could be a months long project, let alone actually getting down to the brass tacks of coding such a thing.
I would also like to address your false assumption that being a Vigilante is necessarily any kind of advantage. Many times I log on there are fewer than 10 people on red-side. If I'm playing a Vigilante the only things I can initiate (as far as I know... and please... correct me if there are other things a Vig/Rog can initiate on the other side) are paper missions, tip mission, and AE missions. That's it... all of which I could just do blue-side.
For a Rogue, of course, the situation is better because of the general popularity of blue-side (a dynamic that is a hold-over from Live and is also the case on Homecoming, which has a MUCH larger player base than Rebirth does).
Lastly, I would suggest that your character having a hidden alignment of some kind is something you can imagine all on your own. I've invented all sorts of stories about odd things that played out in missions, things that struck me funny or weird, or from a comment someone else made. You have the power to make your character into a subversive, a patriot, or whatever you want without someone else's arbitrary system telling you what your character is. I'd also suggest that any such elaborate system of twin alignments may aid your role-playing, but it may also worsen other player's experiences. Every new system (and one as sweeping and complicated as you're proposing would certainly be) comes with all sorts of consequences to existing systems, often times of the unforeseen or unintentional variety. I see no way for people to avoid/ignore the changes you suggest, if they don't care for them.
My suggestion is simple and straight-forward and fits with the topic of what to do in regard to the Alignment Merits, and until someone tells me that my idea is a technical dead end (and I freely admit that it may well be), it's practical, it's simple, and anyone who doesn't want to participate in it can just keep their heroes blue-side and their villains red-side. Every weeknight Villains, Heroes, Rogues, and Vigilantes get together for I Trials and I've never seen anyone comment on the mixing of alignments being a problem. Same with ITF, TinPex, yadda, yadda, yadda.
If you just don't like people being able to easily play together, that's fine (personally, I think that's weird, but we all have different tastes).
However, presenting this incredibly elaborate system of twin alignments (I had to read it twice, and I'm still unsure exactly how it would function) as some sort of subjective 'perfect' that would prevent anything 'good' from happening in the years required to implement such a system is puzzling to me.
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I do want to state that this isn't going to be the last time alignments are going to be touched upon. They fell into the purview of this patch's economy rework by way of being a major method by which players acquire things. Alignments being intended to be a path for solo/low number teams to gain recipes or super packs. As of right now the main benefits of each alignment are
Hero/Villain - Better alignment powers, Better pricing on Hero/Villain Super packs, Access to slightly more stuff (have to double check if those made it in).
Vigilante/Rogue - Better access to group content and badges, better pricing on Vig/Rogue Super packs.
In the future, we hope to expand upon these a bit more. Not only with story arcs for each alignment, but also more clearly defining the benefits of each alignment. Personally, I feel being Pure Hero/Villian should offer additional power of some sort while being Vigilante/Rogue should give you more things you can do.
There will come a time when alignments are specifically focused upon. For now however, our focus has been on the economic impacts of them.
:edit: Also to address concerns about purples, were waiting until after Tuesday's trials on the Test Server to get a full picture.
(just a quick test from: @Draggynn)
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I would also like to address your false assumption that being a Vigilante is necessarily any kind of advantage. Many times I log on there are fewer than 10 people on red-side. If I'm playing a Vigilante the only things I can initiate (as far as I know... and please... correct me if there are other things a Vig/Rog can initiate on the other side) are paper missions, tip mission, and AE missions. That's it... all of which I could just do blue-side.
I play a vigilante explicitly so I can help out on red side content (join in on an LRSF or other task force, team up with a low level villain) and see it as taking a hit because I lose out on the ability to get hero merits. It's worth mentioning that vigilantes also have the ability to initiate villain side TFs (something I should probably do more of). If alignments were unlocked from content, I would probably switch back to being a hero. From a purely selfish perspective I like that rogues and vigilantes are getting more parity with purchasing power so that it feels like less of a hit going Vigilante. This may actually help the imbalance that you see red side if more heroes are able to go vigilante without feeling like they're taking such a significant hit. However, and I know we disagree here, I think for the system to have meaning there still needs to be some impact from making the decision. Gating existing content is definitely not a beneficial way to make that adjustment though. I've just been pondering what might be doable to feel significant without feeling necessary.
In the brainstorming category to see if anything sticks: If we were to entirely open up content, like Kismet suggests, what about giving heroes and villains a small buff when running content native to their side? Initially I was thinking that you could give heroes and villains a buff when running TFs that are alignment locked and Rogues/Vigilantes a buff when running co-op TFs but that seems unfair since co-op TFS are so much more common at high levels. So then I was thinking, give everyone a Kheldian style power, where heroes and villains get a buff for every hero or villain on their team. And rogues and Vigilantes get a buff from everyone who's not a hero or villain on their team. Obviously, this would have to be a tiny tiny power no not break things, and practicality may be non existent (although maybe the warmth of prometheus could be used to figure out how to do it?) I especially like how thematic that feels. I suggest you treat these as the family feud model of brainstorming (Category: "Things you find in the ocean", Answer: "Hot Dogs", Family: "Good Answer, Good Answer, I'm sure it'll be up there")
Hero/Villain - Better alignment powers, Better pricing on Hero/Villain Super packs, Access to slightly more stuff (have to double check if those made it in).
I had not notice before that there was any difference in what could be purchased, but I think that's the sort of modest benefit that would be useful in making the pure alignments not feel purely like an RP choice.
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1: very rare attuned enhancements are any Rare or Very Rare enhancement that has been attuned with an Enhancement catalyst.
2: There is a thread here for Inf Dump ideas, that is Inf Sinks. Any one please feel free to add or discuss. Devs feel free to gain inspiration from it.
3: On live I used to mish in DA a lot and would often get a purple once every 2 hours of +4 x8 farming. For me, that is the right speed. It's a reward for making a good build and continuing to play on it. Not to say squishies are a bad build, but I.M.E. tanks, brutes and scrappers are the money makers. heck throw MM's in there and a few specific Troller and Dom builds. Blaster? maybe -1 x8 if you really know what your goal is, and if a blaster can do it then anything can.
4: On live, I can confirm PVP recipes did in fact drop from normal enemies and missions, both in PVP zones and out. heck even on rebirth I've already gotten a few low level PVP recipes and haven't even done PVP at all. sadly they were not the good ones and there were 0 bidders so I dumped them at the shop. I know I could have crafted and converted out of set. but the level was kinda odd too not super low and not decently high.
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It's worth mentioning that vigilantes also have the ability to initiate villain side TFs (something I should probably do more of).
Thank you for pointing that out, Draggynn. I'd only ever tried speaking to the contacts I'd unlocked on the opposite side, only to have them say they couldn't work with me. It never occurred to me that the TFs (signature style missions that seem like the most heroic of the heroic or most villainous of the villainous) would be available for Vigs/Rogs to start on the other side.
While the ability to start TFs does add some value to Vigilantes, it's (imho) nowhere near the value of Alignment Merits on live.
I mention live versus test because I only ever thought of treating Heroes like how Vigilantes are treated now (and the same for red-side) because Draggynn and D'Spite were questioning what value being a hero or villain had under the proposed changes on test:
I don't have any suggestions for minor or moderate tweaks here, things are just too far out of alignment.
This needs to go back to the drawing board, and the first question answered should be "What gameplay reason would anyone have to stay a Hero / Villain now?"
Seeing the whole idea of rebalancing the way Merits are awarded potentially being thrown out was what inspired my solution of just opening up both sides and letting people play together with less hoop-jumping. So, thanks for the inspiration. I liked coming up with the idea, despite my doubts it'll ever happen.
Anyhow, in regard to the purple drop rate and changing vendor prices I can only suggest caution.
There are numerous levers being pulled, some of which will be difficult to un-pull if these changes go live (people will get upset when their toy allowance is reduced). There are so many changes suggested, some of which seem really dramatic (the reduction in price of purples combined with a vastly increased drop rate, alone, are concerning from an economic perspective), so that I don't feel that I can even intelligently comment on what should be adjusted and how.
I do feel like there is a vast chasm between players with established characters and new players to the server. Certainly, rare enhancement sets should require some work to collect and purples should always feel special, but everyone logged on to this game to feel like whatever their vision of a super-person is. Spending, potentially, months at end game playing alongside a platoon of 50+3's with perma-hasten and/or capped defenses and/or capped resistances, etc... would certainly make me feel a lot less super. Sure, some people have the patience to soldier through, but I suspect many people will (and have) become frustrated/discouraged and just go do something else.
To be clear, while I certainly won't turn away any drops or merits, I have enough material laying around on my various characters to take any fresh 50 and kit them out completely. I'm sure there are several other players who not only could do the same thing, but perhaps kit out a whole team of 8! I'm looking at this from the perspective of attracting and retaining quality players in hopes that someday, just maybe, I'll think going through the tip and alignment missions to become a Vigilante is actually worth surrendering something significant for.
I'd really like to see small changes, first. Change a pricing scheme (since the 30 emp purple rate didn't seem to make much of a splash) or modestly increase the drop rate or allow people to select purples from reward tables, but please don't try to change all of it at once. I understand that the test server is just that, a place to test things, but I for one would not like to see ALL of these changes to go live. It just seems like too much.
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1: very rare attuned enhancements are any Rare or Very Rare enhancement that has been attuned with an Enhancement catalyst.
At least on Rebirth right now, enhancement catalysts can only be used on ATOs and the Winter Sets. Very Rare attuned enhancements are a possible reward from super packs on test. Right now they only differ from standard Purple enhancements in that they can't be boosted.
4: On live, I can confirm PVP recipes did in fact drop from normal enemies and missions, both in PVP zones and out. heck even on rebirth I've already gotten a few low level PVP recipes and haven't even done PVP at all.
Hmm, that would have been a bug on live and on Rebirth. They are only intended to drop during PvP (paragon wiki provided as it's a snapshot from live at shutdown): https://archive.paragonwiki.com/wiki/PvP_IO_Sets. I know several of the other servers have made changes so that PvP recipes drop in other content, but that shouldn't be happening on Rebirth.