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City of Heroes: Rebirth Forums

City of Heroes: Rebirth => Archetypes => Defender => Topic started by: Redlynne on Oct 08, 2024, 05:39 PM

Title: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: Redlynne on Oct 08, 2024, 05:39 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/gqYkngU.gif)

Alright.
Let's do this (again) ...


Level 50 Natural Defender
Primary Power Set (9): Kinetics
Secondary Power Set (9): Dual Pistols
Power Pool (3): Leadership
Ancillary Power Pool (3): Psychic Mastery

Praetorian Loyalist Profile

Level 1: Transfusion

Level 1: Pistols

Level 2: Siphon Power

Level 4: Repel

Level 6: Dual Wield

Level 8: Empty Clips

Level 10: Swap Ammo

Level 12: Siphon Speed

Level 14: Increase Density

Level 16: Bullet Rain

Level 18: Speed Boost

Level 20: Suppressive Fire

Level 22: Inertial Reduction

Level 24: Maneuvers

Level 26: Transference

Level 28: Executioner's Shot

Level 30: Tactics

Level 32: Fulcrum Shift

Level 35: Piercing Rounds

Level 38: Hail of Bullets

Level 41: Assault

Level 44: Mass Hypnosis

Level 47: World of Confusion

Level 49: Telekinesis


Level 1: Vigilance
Level 1: Brawl
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide[/b]
Level 1: Sprint
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush
Level 2: Rest
Level 2: Swift
Level 2: Hurdle
Level 2: Health
Level 2: Stamina
Level 4: Ninja Run or Beast Run
Level 10: Chemical Ammunition
Level 10: Cryo Ammunition
Level 10: Incendiary Ammunition

Level 50: Alpha Intuition Radial Paragon (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Intuition_Radial_Paragon)
Level 50: Judgement Vorpal Radial Final Judgement (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Vorpal_Radial_Final_Judgement)
Level 50: Interface Cognitive Core Flawless Interface (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Cognitive_Core_Flawless_Interface)
Level 50: Lore Robotic Drones Core Superior Ally (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Robotic_Drones_Core_Superior_Ally)
Level 50: Destiny Clarion Radial Epiphany (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Clarion_Radial_Epiphany)
Level 50: Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Assault_Radial_Embodiment)
Level 50: Genesis Socket Radial Flawless Genesis (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Socket_Radial_Flawless_Genesis)


Set Bonuses:

15% Accuracy (Superior Vigilant Assault: 4)
15% Accuracy (Fortunata Hypnosis: 4)

4% Confuse (Coercive Persuasion: 3)

3% Damage (Theft of Essence: 5)
4% Damage (Superior Vigilant Assault: 5)
4% Damage (Superior Witchcraft: 2)
4% Damage (Coercive Persuasion: 4)

3% Defense All (Steadfast Protection: 1)
3% Defense All (Gladiator's Armor: 1)
5% Defense Melee, 2.5% Defense Smashing/Lethal (Superior Avalanche: 5)
2.5% Defense Ranged, 5% Defense Energy/Negative (Superior Wiitchcraft: 3)
2.5% Defense Ranged, 5% Defense Energy/Negative (Superior Winter's Bite: 5)
5% Defense Ranged, 2.5% Defense Energy/Negative (Superior Defender's Bastion: 5)
5% Defense Ranged, 2.5% Defense Energy/Negative (Coercive Persuasion: 6)
5% Defense AoE, 2.5% Defense Fire/Cold (Superior Vigilant Assault: 6)
2.5% Defense AoE, 5% Defense Fire/Cold (Superior Avalanche: 6)

3.75% Endurance Discount (Reactive Defenses: 5)
3.75% Endurance Discount (Preventative Medicine: 5)

5% Improved Healing (Theft of Essence: 4)
8% Improved Healing (Superior Defender's Bastion: 4)

Mag 4 Knockback Protection (Blessing of the Zephyr: 1)

1.8% Max END (Theft of Essence: 3)
3.6% Max END (Superior Vigilant Assault: 2)

1.88% Max HP (Reactive Defenses: 3)
1.88% Max HP (Preventative Medicine: 3)
1.88% Max HP (Performance Shifter: 3)
3% Max HP (Superior Defender's Bastion: 2)

7.5% Movement (Performance Shifter: 2)

7.5% Range (Rolling Barrage: 2)
7.5% Range (Rolling Barrage: 2)
7.5% Range (Rolling Barrage: 2)
10% Range (Superior Defender's Bastion: 3)

8.75% Recharge (Reactive Defenses: 6)
8.75% Recharge (Preventative Medicine: 6)
10% Recharge (Superior Defender's Bastion: 6)
10% Recharge (Superior Vigilant Assault: 3)
10% Recharge (Superior Witchcraft: 4)
10% Recharge (Fortunata Hypnosis: 5)
10% Recharge (Coercive Persuasion: 5)

4% Recovery (Superior Winter's Bite: 4)
4% Recovery (Superior Avalanche: 4)
4% Recovery (Fortunata Hypnosis: 2)
4% Recovery (Coercive Persuasion: 2)

10% Regeneration (Theft of Essence: 2)

1.5% Resistance Smashing/Lethal, 2.5% Resistance Mez (Reactive Defenses: 2)
2.25% Resistance Smashing/Lethal, 3.75% Resistance Mez (Neuronic Shutdown: 2)
2.25% Resistance Smashing/Lethal, 3.75% Resistance Mez (Preventative Medicine: 2)
3% Resistance Fire/Cold, 5% Resistance Mez (Reactive Defenses: 4)
3% Resistance Fire/Cold, 5% Resistance Mez (Preventative Medicine: 4)
6% Resistance Fire/Cold, 10% Resistance Mez (Superior Winter's Bite: 2)
6% Resistance Fire/Cold, 10% Resistance Mez (Superior Avalanche: 3)
6% Resistance Fire/Cold, 10% Resistance Mez (Fortunata Hypnosis: 3)
4.5% Resistance Energy/Negative, 7.5% Resistance Mez (Theft of Essence: 6)

15% Resistance Slow (Superior Winter's Bite: 3)
15% Resistance Slow (Superior Avalanche: 2)
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: Redlynne on Oct 08, 2024, 07:23 PM
In case anyone looks at the above build and really wishes it had Hasten in it ... well, it's actually possible to do ... provided you're willing to sacrifice the utility of Telekinesis and reshuffle the order of powers slightly.


BEFORE

Level 24: Maneuvers

Level 30: Tactics

Level 41: Assault

Level 49: Telekinesis


AFTER

Level 24: Hasten

Level 30: Maneuvers

Level 41: Tactics

Level 49: Assault


Other permutations are possible (of course), but this rework looks like the most "broadly useful" variation on the theme available.
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: jordan_yen on Oct 11, 2024, 08:39 PM
That's some awesome detail. Personally, I find it hard to play defenders these days where there are corruptors RIGHT THERE.
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: Redlynne on Oct 12, 2024, 10:35 AM
Quote from: jordan_yen on Oct 11, 2024, 08:39 PMThat's some awesome detail. Personally, I find it hard to play defenders these days where there are corruptors RIGHT THERE.

This basically comes down to a question of "What is more important to you?" ... buff/debuff or chances for bonus damage when your $Target(s) fall below 50% HP.

The theorycrafting behind the "value" of this choice hinges upon the idea that Scourge is not "overkill wasteful" when delivering bonus damage. The real measure of the benefits of Scourge comes down to an accounting of how many attacks need to be animated in order to achieve a defeat. When Scourge means you only need to make 2 attacks instead of 3 (for example), that's a context where Scourge bonus damage is making a useful difference. But if you need to make 3 attacks with or without Scourge to achieve a defeat, is Scourge really "helping" you all that much?

Needless to say, working out how many attacks Scourge will "save" you from having to make is a very fuzzy thing to try and work out on a spreadsheet or theorycrafting analysis. However, my feeling/sense for the question is that Scourge is not as much of a difference maker as a lot of people make it out to be.

Conversely, the differential of buff/debuff values that a Defender can deliver relative to a Corruptor will be small per each power, but those differences can stack up into meaningful amounts of buff/debuff which can in turn be decisive (especially in team/league contexts).

However, all of these points are ultimately a matter of "FEEL" and a judgement call for individual Players to make ... meaning that there is no One Size Fits All "RIGHT" Answer for everyone.

The beauty of the above build is that it CAN be ported from Defender to Corruptor if that's what you would prefer to play. You'll need to reorganize the sequencing of power choices (and thus some slotting associated with them, of course) due to the flop between primary/secondary power sets, but otherwise it's mainly a matter of "reshuffling" powers and slots, rather than a wholesale urban renewal. You'll also be using Corruptor ATOs instead of Defender ATOs, but the difference in set bonuses and proc effects there are almost trivial ... so if that's what you want, there's not much stopping you!  8)
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: mercury rising on Oct 13, 2024, 10:26 AM
Looks like another roller coaster build but has a few issues. When using repel and telekinesis together your end recovery is less than your end use. You have nice defense but almost no damage resistance that might pose a problem if you are in melee range. Your damage even with your procs is not amazing. making a proc monster with suppressive fire would be great if it did more damage but minor damage scale cant live up to what you want to happen. Added a pic of your vitals from mids.
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: Redlynne on Oct 13, 2024, 11:57 AM
Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 13, 2024, 10:26 AMLooks like another roller coaster build

That's Kinetics for you.

Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 13, 2024, 10:26 AMWhen using repel and telekinesis together your end recovery is less than your end use.

Repel isn't necessarily a "always on" toggle.
The way I intend to use Repel is in opposition to World of Confusion.
That's because Repel isn't "always useful in all contexts and circumstances" (such as diving in for a Fulcrum Shift). And because Telekinesis is the Level 49 power, use of it can be judicious.

As for blue bar "balance issues" with Repel and Telekinesis running simultaneously, there's the +END proc in Transfusion and the use of Transference to mitigate blue bar draining (when in close).

So although it LOOKS BAD in Mids', that isn't the entire picture in actual gameplay.

Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 13, 2024, 10:26 AMYou have nice defense but almost no damage resistance that might pose a problem if you are in melee range.

Ah, but Dual Pistols has Chemical Ammo that deals Toxic damage and debuffs damage from affected $Targets.
Additionally, -Resistance debuffing will AMPLIFY the damage debuffing that Chemical Ammo applies to $Targets.

Optionally, use of Cryo Ammo can stack -Recharge debuffing, creating an alternative route to reducing DPS output by $Targets.

The difference between defense/resistance buffing to self (seen in Mids') and debuffing to $Targets is that the debuffing benefits everyone those $Targets attack ... not just yourself.

Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 13, 2024, 10:26 AMYour damage even with your procs is not amazing.

Not trying to "Be A Blaster" (per se) ... but Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift goes a long way towards reaching the damage buff cap.

Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 13, 2024, 10:26 AMmaking a proc monster with suppressive fire would be great if it did more damage but minor damage scale cant live up to what you want to happen. Added a pic of your vitals from mids.
Suppresive Fire > Piercing Rounds > Bullet Rain > Empty Clips
Suppressive Fire > Executioner's Shot > Pistols > Dual Wield > Pistols ... etc.

The build up proc will apply to 2-3 follow up AoE attacks, maximizing the throughput of that build up proc onto groups of $Targets in the attacks that follow after Suppressive Fire.
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: mercury rising on Oct 15, 2024, 01:36 AM
with suppressive fire you are just maximizing the minimum , why not make a damaging power a proc monster that's where it sings like executioners shot perhaps or any of the others that have multiple options. Proc away if the power does damage but a power that has no damage?
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: Redlynne on Oct 15, 2024, 12:53 PM
Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 15, 2024, 01:36 AMwith suppressive fire you are just maximizing the minimum , why not make a damaging power a proc monster that's where it sings like executioners shot perhaps or any of the others that have multiple options. Proc away if the power does damage but a power that has no damage?

I had been giving you the benefit of the doubt ... but this reply of yours proves that doing so is a waste of my time (and yours). So I'll make this simple.

You DON'T GET IT.
Full stop. :-X

Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 15, 2024, 01:36 AMwhy not make a damaging power a proc monster that's where it sings like executioners shot perhaps or any of the others that have multiple options.

If I put did a 5 slot Superior Winter's Bite + 1 slot Decimation Build Up proc slotting, what would be the proc chance for Decimation (1 PPM)?

If I put the Decimation Build Up proc into Suppressive Fire and deliberately avoid slotting any recharge enhancement into the power, what would be the proc chance for Decimation (1 PPM)?

Hmmm ... 3.17x the proc chance per animation.
1 in 9 proc chance for Executioner's Shot versus 1 in 3 chance for Suppressive Fire.
Hmmm ... so hard to decided which is better. :o

Except, it isn't hard to decide at all. ???

With 67.5% global recharge, plus 20% recharge from 1x Siphon Speed ... a 20s recharge power like Suppressive Fire will recharge in 20/(1+0.675+0.2)=10.67 seconds. Obviously, "deeper" stacks of Siphon Speed will increase that recharge rate even further.

And just to Show My Work ... if a Force Feedback proc (or two) gets involved, that recharge time is going to drop down even lower, because 20/(1+0.675+0.2+1)=6.97s if Force Feedback "is continuous while it matters" (which it won't be, but I'm not reaching for that extreme level of granularity). Point being that the recharge time on Suppressive Fire will typically hover around the 7-10.7s range ... which isn't that bad for an attack chain that has Dual Pistols attack powers that animate in ~1-2.5s each, and the Kinetics powers tend to have animation times of ~2 seconds each for attacks, so that 7-10.7s range of recharge time for Suppressive Fire is just about right in the context of the build and how its animations "assemble" in combat.

Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 15, 2024, 01:36 AMProc away if the power does damage but a power that has no damage?

Sigh.
Because the Build Up proc "carries forwards" into follow up attacks due to its 5.25s duration. The build up proc is most damaging when the follow up attacks are AoEs, because any build up procs automatically buff the damage dealt to each $Target of AoEs during the buff duration. So being able to follow up a Suppressive Fire build up proc with Piercing Rounds, Bullet Rain and Empty Clips is THREE AoE attacks, which can stack up a LOT of -Resistance debuffing (more with Standard Ammo), has 2x Force Feedback proc chances (Bullet Rain AND Empty Clips!) ... and there's more, but I hope I've made my point.

The REAL trick with the Decimation build up proc is that it can only go into a single target ranged attack, and it's 1.0 PPM, meaning that with most single target ranged attacks the proc rate is LOW (6.5-17% being somewhat typical). I've figured out a way to make it proc OVER 35% of the time(!!) in a power that is MASSIVELY advantaged by global recharge buff factors ... which when stacked deeply enough means that Suppressive Fire can become a part of a standard attack rotation, rather than being another "in emergency break glass" type of power.

Furthermore, I don't NEED Suppressive Fire to be a "big damage dealer" all by itself, with Superior Damage rating built into the power description. I've got damage procs that can do that job (capped at 90% chance) while also being able to stack on top TWO +2 Mag Hold procs (89-90% chance!) for some seriously deep mez mag stacking with just a single shot, so as to be able to neutralize threats (to myself and others). And because there is +32.5% global range buffing going on, the default 60ft range of Suppressive Fire increases to 60*1.325=79.5ft ... assuming that T4 Clarion Radial isn't buffing range (and on power mez durations...) even more at the time that shots are being taken.



So to answer your questions as politely as possible ... I have my reasons. ::)
Granted, they're not YOUR reasons, but that's why we post things ... so as to be able to learn from each other's example. It helps when the thinking behind the decisions is explained, so as to be able to examine the thinking behind those decisions and weigh the relative merits of each choice.
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: mercury rising on Oct 15, 2024, 01:23 PM
I actually do get it, I had quite a long chat with kismet about this very subject. You are maximizing the minimum. This is your choice of course but maximizing a higher rated damage power would provide more damage with the chance to proc. You have a chance to proc that is the emphasis, not a 100% chance to proc even with your numbers you might run into hit cycle when it doesnt proc at all or much. As for making a power like time stop for instance do damage that's almost crazy to me i'd rather maximize the hold and other effects so my damaging powers could do more damage in that scenario. I always check with others before i make my statements, so i don't agree with you nor have i seen any proof of your amazing abilities in trials all i ever see is you helpin me finish someone off..lol! Also if i remember correctly Red you had a discussion with me about my information from mids getting a build to look better on paper so how are you not doing the same thing with your math calculations? The answer is Red's answers are always right and we are wrong unless we see the light and think like you do. Have a pleasant day!
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: Redlynne on Oct 15, 2024, 05:55 PM
Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 15, 2024, 01:23 PMI actually do get it

It's cute that you believe that ... when everything that you've said proves that you DON'T ... and even worse, WON'T.

Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: mercury rising on Oct 15, 2024, 11:50 PM
No witty comeback? That's all? I feel like Kirk addressing Khan in Star Trek 2. "Khan i'm laughing at your superior intellect" This is from Kismet and i heartily agree .I don't doubt that Suppressive Fire can be made to proc effectively with its 20 second recharge, but so what?

Empty Clips, Bullet Rain, and Piercing Rounds can all be made to proc as well, have much more interesting and build-affecting choices like FF procs and -res procs, and they do actual damage to boot! Plus when the main focus in this game is nailing mobs a minor damage power against one target is not very fruitfull at all.
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: Redlynne on Oct 16, 2024, 12:01 AM
Quote from: mercury rising on Oct 15, 2024, 11:50 PMNo witty comeback?

None needed.
You DON'T GET IT.
Even if I tried to explain it to you, you WON'T GET IT.

This is now the third time in this thread that you've demonstrated that you are incapable of understanding what's going on here.
Three strikes ... you're out.
Thank you for playing.
Title: Re: Kinetics/Dual Pistols/Psychic Mastery Defender
Post by: mercury rising on Oct 18, 2024, 12:56 AM
Kismet was looking over your build as well, and did you know that with fulcrum shift going off on 4 targets in range you are at the damage cap for all your aoe's which effectively means your Decimation proc won't help! So all that overslotting on suppresive fire for a 20 second hold on a single target is meaningless.
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