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City of Heroes: Rebirth Forums

City of Heroes: Rebirth => Archetypes => Tanker => Topic started by: Redlynne on Dec 18, 2024, 08:04 PM

Title: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Redlynne on Dec 18, 2024, 08:04 PM
(https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/w/images/7/7f/Ghost_Widow_Emote_BringIt.gif)

Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set {8}: Super Reflexes
Secondary Power Set {6}: Martial Arts
Power Pool {1}: Teleportation
Power Pool {3}: Leadership
Power Pool {1}: Concealment
Power Pool {1}: Flight
Epic Power Pool {4}: Martial Prowess

Hero Profile


Level 1: Focused Fighting (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 47.39125%, R: 80.39125%) (Defense: 74.1158625%) {Defense Melee: 32.21143456}

Level 1: Thunder Kick (A: 66.25%, D: 89.925%, E: 66.25%, R: 78.05%)

Level 2: Storm Kick (A: 81.5344%, D: 101.36645%, E: 49.689%, R: 123.52575%)

Level 4: Cobra Strike (A: 81.5344%, D: 101.36645%, E: 49.689%, R: 123.52575%)

Level 6: Practiced Brawler (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 73.348%, R: 105.248%) (Heal: 97.37675) {Absorb: 295.92301374}

Level 8: Focused Senses (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 47.39125%, R: 80.39125%) (Defense: 74.1158625%) {Defense Ranged: 32.21143456}

Level 10: Warrior's Provocation (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 0%, R: 33%) (Taunt: 53%) {Mag 4 Taunt for 62.73s}

Level 12: Evasion (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 47.39125%, R: 80.39125%) (Defense: 74.1158625%) {Defense AoE: 32.21143456}

Level 14: Dodge (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 47.39125%, R: 69.84375%) (Defense: 71.748675%, Resistance: 4.375%) {Defense Melee: 12.88115062}

Level 16: Agile  (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 47.39125%, R: 69.84375%) (Defense: 71.748675%, Resistance: 21.125%) {Defense Ranged: 12.88115062, Max Health: +140.5575}

Level 18: Lucky  (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 47.39125%, R: 69.84375%) (Defense: 71.748675%) {Defense AoE: 12.88115062}

Level 20: Blink (A: 26.5%, D: 26.5%, E: 26.5%, R: 33%) (Defense: 20%) {Defense: 6.96%}
Warning: This power can teleport you to the "wrong side" of world geometry when Foes are clipping through walls.

Level 22: Maneuvers  (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 57.3%, R: 90.3%)  (Defense: 70.0473%) {Defense: +3.87}

Level 24: Tactics (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 36.663%, R: 33%) (ToHit: 22%) (ToHit Buff: +8.54)

Level 26: Quickness (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 0%, R: 0%) (Fly: 33%, Heal: 95.9%, Run: 33%) {Fly: 18.15%, Regeneration: 146.925%, Run: 46.55%}

Level 28: Assault (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 53%, R: 33%) (Damage: +10.5%)

Level 30: Stealth (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 0%, R: 0%) (Defense: +32%) {Defense All: +3.3 (+3.3 out of combat)}

Level 32: Hover (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 0%, R: 0%) (Defense: +32%, Fly: 33%) {Defense All: +3.3, Fly: 66.5%}

Level 35: Dragon's Tail (A: 65.82125%, D: 96.1919375%, E: 18.43%, R: 117.4725%)

Level 38: Eagle's Claw (A: 96.3974%, D: 101.36645%, E: 81.5344%, R: 104.4902%)

Level 41: Battle Hardened (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 0%, R: 0%) (Endurance Modification: 33%) {Max Endurance: +4.655, Max Health: +140.56}

Level 44: Art of War (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 0%, R: 0%)

Level 47: Valiance (A: 0%, D: 0%, E: 47.39125%, R: 80.39125%) (Heal: 97.37675%) {Regeneration (Self): 157.9014%, Regeneration (Allies): 118.42605%}
Note: Panacea procs can grant +HP and +END to all affected $Targets, rather than being coded as Self (caster) only, making it an excellent choice for AoE Heal effects (including those generated by pseudopets (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Pseudopet)).

Level 49: Throwing Dagger (A: 26.5%, D: 26.5%, E: 26.5%, R: 33%)
Title: Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Redlynne on Dec 18, 2024, 08:04 PM
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Brawl
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide[/b]
Level 1: Sprint
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush
Level 2: Rest
Level 2: Swift
Level 2: Hurdle
Level 2: Health (Heal: 44%) {Regeneration: 57.6%}
Level 2: Stamina (Endurance Mod: 100.508375%) {Recovery: 50.12709375%}
Level 4: Ninja Run or Beast Run

Level 50: Alpha Agility Radial Paragon (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Alpha_Slot_Abilities#Agility)
Level 50: Judgement Ion Radial Final Judgement (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Judgement_Slot_Abilities#Ion)
Level 50: Interface Gravitic Radial Flawless Interface (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Interface_Slot_Abilities#Gravitic)
Level 50: Lore Robotic Drones Core Superior Ally (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Lore_Slot_Abilities#Robotic_Drones)
Level 50: Destiny Rebirth Radial Epiphany (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Destiny_Slot_Abilities#Rebirth)
Level 50: Hybrid Assault Radial Embodiment (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Hybrid_Slot_Abilities#Assault)
Level 50: Genesis Socket Radial Flawless (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Socket_Slot_Abilities#Socket) (+10 Max Endurance, +10% Max Health)

Freedom Phalanx Reserve (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Freedom_Phalanx_Reserve_Member_Badge) / High Pain Threshold (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/High_Pain_Threshold_Badge): +10% Max Health
Portal Jockey (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Portal_Jockey_Badge) / Born In Battle (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Born_in_Battle_Badge): +5 Max Endurance, +5% Max Health
Received the Atlas Medallion (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Received_the_Atlas_Medallion_Badge) / Marshal (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Marshal_Badge): +5 Max Endurance
Task Force Commander (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Task_Force_Commander_Badge) / Invader (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Invader_Badge): +5% Max Health


Set Bonuses (to verify The Law of Fives (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Enhancement_Set_Bonuses#The_Law_of_Fives) is not being violated)

2.5% Damage (Shield Wall: 5)
3% Damage (Overwhelming Force: 3)
4% Damage (Superior Might of the Tanker: 2)
= +9.5%

3% Defense All (Steadfast Protection: 1)
3% Defense All (Gladiator's Armor: 1)
= +6%

5% Defense Melee, 2.5% Defense S/L (Superior Gauntleted Fist: 5)

1.25% Defense Ranged, 2.5% Defense E/N (Overwhelming Force: 5)
1.5625% Defense Ranged, 3.125% Defense E/N (Eradication: 3)
= +2.8125%

3.125% Defense AoE, 1.5625% Defense F/C (Eradication: 6)

3.75% Endurance Discount (Preventive Medicine: 5)
3.75% Endurance Discount (Reactive Defenses: 5)
= +7.5%

1.8% Max Endurance (Gift of the Ancients: 4)
1.8% Max Endurance (Gift of the Ancients: 4)
1.8% Max Endurance (Gift of the Ancients: 4)
1.8% Max Endurance (Eradication: 2)
3.6% Max Endurance (Superior Gauntleted Fist: 2)
3.6% Max Endurance (Superior Vampire's Bite: 4)
= +14.4%

1.5% Max Health (Overwhelming Force: 4)
1.5% Max Health (Panacea: 4)
1.875% Max Health (Preventive Medicine: 3)
1.875% Max Health (Reactive Defenses: 3)
1.875% Max Health (Performance Shifter: 3)
2.25% Max Health (Shield Wall: 3)
2.25% Max Health (Shield Wall: 3)
2.25% Max Health (Shield Wall: 3)
2.25% Max Health (Eradication: 4)
3% Max Health (Superior Might of the Tanker: 3)
3% Max Health (Superior Vampire's Bite: 3)
7.5% Max Health (Unbreakable Guard: 1)
= +31.125%

7.5% Movement (Gift of the Ancients: 1)
7.5% Movement (Gift of the Ancients: 1)
7.5% Movement (Gift of the Ancients: 1)
7.5% Movement (Performance Shifter: 2)
= +30%

7.5% Recharge (Panacea: 5)
7.5% Recharge (Luck of the Gambler: 1)
7.5% Recharge (Luck of the Gambler: 1)
8.75% Recharge (Preventive Medicine: 6)
8.75% Recharge (Reactive Defenses: 6)
10% Recharge (Superior Might of the Tanker: 4)
10% Recharge (Superior Vampire's Bite: 6)
= +60%

2% Recovery (Gift of the Ancients: 2)
2% Recovery (Gift of the Ancients: 2)
2% Recovery (Gift of the Ancients: 2)
2.5% Recovery (Panacea: 2)
10% Recovery (Numina's Convalescence: 1)
15% Recovery (Miracle: 1)
= +33.5%

10% Regeneration (Shield Wall: 2)
10% Regeneration (Shield Wall: 2)
10% Regeneration (Shield Wall: 2)
10% Regeneration (Panacea: 3)
10% Regeneration (Numina's Convalescence: 1)
12% Regeneration (Overwhelming Force: 2)
12% Regeneration (Eradication: 5)
12% Regeneration (Numina's Convalescence: 2)
16% Regeneration (Superior Gauntleted Fist: 5)
16% Regeneration (Superior Vampire's Bite: 5)
20% Regeneration (Numina's Convalescence: 1)
25% Regeneration (Impervious Skin: 1)
25% Regeneration (Regenerative Tissue: 1)
= +188%

3% (to 13%) Resistance All (Reactive Defenses: 1)
5% Resistance All (Shield Wall: 1)
= +8% (to 18%)

1.5% Resistance S/L, 2.5% Resistance Mez (Reactive Defenses: 2)
2.25% Resistance S/L, 3.75% Resistance Mez (Preventive Medicine: 2)
6% Resistance S/L, 10% Resistance Mez (Superior Might of the Tanker: 6)
6% Resistance S/L, 10% Resistance Mez (Superior Gauntleted Fist: 6)
= +15.75% S/L

3.75% Resistance E/N, 6.25% Resistance Mez (Gift of the Ancients: 5)
3.75% Resistance E/N, 6.25% Resistance Mez (Gift of the Ancients: 5)
3.75% Resistance E/N, 6.25% Resistance Mez (Gift of the Ancients: 5)
4.5% Resistance E/N, 7.5% Resistance Mez (Shield Wall: 4)
4.5% Resistance E/N, 7.5% Resistance Mez (Shield Wall: 4)
4.5% Resistance E/N, 7.5% Resistance Mez (Shield Wall: 4)
6% Resistance E/N, 10% Resistance Mez (Superior Gauntleted Fist: 3)
6% Resistance E/N, 10% Resistance Mez (Superior Vampire's Bite: 2)
= +36.75% E/N

2.25% Resistance F/C, 3.75% Resistance Mez (Gift of the Ancients: 3)
2.25% Resistance F/C, 3.75% Resistance Mez (Gift of the Ancients: 3)
2.25% Resistance F/C, 3.75% Resistance Mez (Gift of the Ancients: 3)
3% Resistance F/C, 5% Resistance Mez (Preventive Medicine: 4)
3% Resistance F/C, 5% Resistance Mez (Reactive Defenses: 4)
6% Resistance F/C, 10% Resistance Mez (Superior Gauntleted Fist: 6)
= +18.75% F/C

6% Resistance T/P, 10% Resistance Mez (Superior Might of the Tanker: 5)

7.5% Resistance Mez (Impervious Skin: 1)
= +136.25% Mez

6% ToHit (Kismet: 1)


Combat Relevant Stats, pulled from in-game on a completed build:

1/20th of 3160.1432 Max Health every 12 seconds = 158.00716 Regeneration tick every 12 seconds (base)
12 / (1+6.6885245) = 1.56076761 seconds per Regeneration tick
158.00716 / 1.56076761 = 101.23682667 Health / second

1/15th of 139.06 Max Endurance every 4 seconds = 9.27066667 Recovery tick every 4 seconds (base)
4 / (1+0.83627094) = 2.17832778 seconds per Recovery tick
9.27066667 / 2.17832778 = 4.25586395 Endurance / second


Surviving a War Walker's Lethal Force Authorized (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=praetorianidf.extinction_war_walker_lethal_force_authorized.lethal_force_authorized&at=minion_pets) as a Main Tank theory crafting:

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2

My understanding is that War Walkers calculate as Level 55 Foes, making them +2 vs Incarnate (+3). Due to Purple Patch (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Purple_Patch) modifiers, this increases the amount of damage delivered per DoT tick by +22%.
1060.2 * 1.22 = 1293.444 Energy damage per tick, 4x over 4s

@ 44.75% (minimum) Energy Resistance: 1293.444 * (1-0.4475) = 714.62781 Energy damage taken per tick, 4x over 4s

Practiced Brawler @ 295.92 Absorb every 0.5s: 714.62781 - 295.92 = 418.70781 Energy damage taken to Health per tick, 4x over 4s

418.70781 * 4 = 1674.83124 Energy damage taken to Health in total

During those 4 seconds, because Regeneration ticks are happening every ~1.56s, a minimum of 2 Regeneration ticks ought to occur while Lethal Force Authorized is continuing to deal damage (possibly 3 Regeneration ticks, depending on timing, but for the purposes of this analysis, I'm assuming a "worst case scenario" of only 2 Regeneration ticks).

1674.83124 - (158.00716*2) = 1358.81692 Energy damage taken to Health (net, after Absorb and Regeneration)

The build has 3160.1432 Max Health.
3160.1432 - 1358.81692 = +1801.32628 margin of Health

So even if I'm wrong and there's 5 ticks of Energy damage instead of only 4 (initial + 4), there's still a comfortable margin of safety.

(418.70781 * 5) - (158.00716*2) = 1777.52473 Energy damage taken to Health (net, after Absorb and Regeneration)

So absolute worst case scenario, 3160.1432 - 1777.52473 = +1382.61847 margin of Health ... which should be enough to face tank Lethal Force Authorized without requiring additional support measures (powers, buffs, inspirations, etc.), even when taking additional damage from extra Foes in the vicinity.

(https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/w/images/7/7f/Ghost_Widow_Emote_BringIt.gif)


Relative to my previous SR/MA build for Redlynne, this new one has +323.2 Max Health, +20.25% additional Energy Resistance and a LOT more Regeneration (approximately 2x). The net result is that Click Absorb powers (Force Barrier and Elude) are no longer necessary to be able survive a direct hit from Lethal Force Authorized when main tanking the Underground iTrial.

The emphasis on getting as much Energy Resistance into the build as possible had the side effect of making Hold and Terrorize durations dramatically shorter, which has knock on benefits in the BAF, MoM and DD iTrials. This also impacts War Walkers in the Underground iTrial, dramatically mitigating the "forced time outs" of Arrest Mode and Crowd Control.

This build is NOT CHEAP (4x PvP sets, for starters, plus all those Enhancement Boosters!) on the budget, so anyone who wants to replicate it for themselves ... be prepared to SPEND lots of resources acquiring all the parts and pieces ... but in the end, it's all worth it! 8)



As for how it feels to play this new Rebirth Issue 6 NO GET HITSU!! build ...

Title: Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AM
I have no idea why you're calling tanking the three War Walkers that appear in every instance of the Underground 'Facetanking'. I've seen no alternate strategy for dealing with them, nor does there need to be one. It's simply tanking them. Facetanking was coined by Draggynn to describe simply fighting the Avatar of Hamidon, rather than hiding behind a wall of teammates and taunting it to exploit a weakness in its AI.

I've already built and successfully played an SR tanker many times in Trials to demonstrate (as I've done with /Regen, /Fire and Fire/, and so on) that neither AT nor power sets matter all that much in dealing with everything Incarnate Trials has to offer. The IO system is incredibly powerful and flexible, as is the incarnate system. You never made a single comment about my repeated accomplishments with SR, yet you persist in lauding your own efforts in League chat and in the forums, despite my already covering this ground that you seem to think is virgin. Even in the post I'm responding to you're behaving as if myself, Atom Bomb, and Galvanized Decree (among many others, I'm sure) don't regularly survive LFA just fine.

Included below is the Data Chunk for anyone who wants to see my take on an SR/ Tanker that, months ago now, tanked War Walkers several times. The only death I had was from one yutz who insisted on standing next to me while we were both targeted, meaning that I had to survive two Lethal Force Authorized, something that most of my other tanking characters with better armor sets could survive multiples of with little trouble. Your equation does not include the reality that other yutzes will stand next to you and force you to endure multiple LFAs. It's the nature of the yutz, sorry to say.

I'd add that tanking WW's is something that I've been forced to do with +1 Brutes because no one else would tank. Both times I had to do that went fine, by the way.

I appreciate your experimentation with Valiance. On its own it is a supremely mediocre power. Knowing that it will cause Panacea to proc on other players makes it an interesting option. Thank you for that.

But any attempt on your part to celebrate actually surviving the War Walkers (which is a basic requirement of tanking I-trials and that has already been done on SR, as well as other, much better equipped powersets) seems like self-absorbed flexing. Why you can't celebrate anyone else's previous accomplishments in this area is beyond me. Plenty of other people have figured our how to survive it just fine, even on lame SR. Would it really kill you to just ask how?

When you first landed on Rebirth, I attempted, in polite and respectful ways, to counsel you several times on how to deal with WW's, but you rebuffed me every time with condescending explanations of enemy powers that I clearly understood due to my repeated success in addressing them. Your self-involvement was so great that you even tried to claim in League chat that when I dusted off my Dark/Time Corruptor that it was somehow inspired by your MM, despite that character being a MoAT long before you showed up.

For anyone else who wants to see a less convoluted and more broadly effective build (though expensive still), I've included Haste's build here. She uses a t4 Core Barrier to shore up her positional defenses so that they are all at or above the incarnate caps. I've not enabled it because of the way Mids renders Destiny powers by only showing the maximum buffs they grant. The same goes for Genesis, which also screws up the other totals. I use a t4 Socket. Pick what you like on that one because I see little difference between the Core and the Radial versions.

I refer to this character as more broadly effective because the 185% global recharge allows for all the heavy hitters/crowd controls to be used with great frequency. The recharge also enables Force Barrier to have less than a 10 second down time. With liberal use of the Force Feedback procs in Lightning Rod, Lightning Clap, and Thunder Strike that down time can easily be reduced to the 5 second range or even less with some luck (as well as dramatically increasing the recharge on those same powers). With a single dose of Speed Boost or a Chronoshift, that downtime can be reduced to a few seconds or even be made perma. This allows for a character with 3281 HP to have an 1847 absorb shield in addition to what Practiced Brawler and the Gauntleted Fist proc offer, meaning that Haste can be at the 1874 Tanker absorb cap basically all the time that she's not been recently hit. With all her positional defenses at 60% or greater with the absolute least T4 Core Barrier will do, along with her resistances, she's not taking very much damage all that often, except for trials specials like LFA, which she survives a single dose of just fine.

Actual Facetanking, meaning simply fighting the Avatar of Hamidon, only requires a few T2 or T3 Sturdies, used one at a time, along with some modest support, unless it's a full League without much support. In that case, T4 Sturdies or multiples of lower tier are required. With really good support, the Sturdies probably aren't necessary at all.

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Unfortunately, Mids bugs when I attempt to export the text version. Sorry to anyone unable or unwilling to use Mids. That's the nature of an independently developed bit of software: not everything is going to be bug free.
Title: Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Redlynne on Dec 19, 2024, 11:29 AM
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMI have no idea why you're calling tanking the three War Walkers that appear in every instance of the Underground 'Facetanking'.

For simplicity ... and to explain to anyone new to tanking iTrials that there is no getting away from/denying the special attacks of the War Walkers when you're the aggro magnet.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMYou never made a single comment about my repeated accomplishments with SR

Because I am not familiar with them.
I haven't followed your exploits, nor do I see reference to them here in the Rebirth Forums where I might be able to access that information.

I know that mercury rising likes to cite you (a lot), so I presume you know more than your fair share ... but beyond that, I barely know you or any of the research you have done on builds for Rebirth.

And no, I'm not on Discord.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMyet you persist in lauding your own efforts in League chat and in the forums, despite my already covering this ground that you seem to think is virgin.

What may be "old hat" to you is still "new" for me.
Also, I'm detecting snark, offense and belittlement in your response here. Are you just so in the habit of talking down to people who don't know everything you do that you haven't noticed? :o

I'm trying to create a record of "what works, and why" which is then accessible to other people who come to Rebirth (which is not exactly the same as other servers) so that others can learn from my experiences and mistakes (what works, what doesn't) so that new people can take that information and incorporate it into their own builds and theorycrafting. Once the "completeness" of understanding is shared, it can be modulated into new forms, new ideas and yield new discoveries of new synergies.

Not sure why you find that so ... offensive.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMEven in the post I'm responding to you're behaving as if myself, Atom Bomb, and Galvanized Decree (among many others, I'm sure) don't regularly survive LFA just fine.

Question: At which point did I state (unequivocably) or even imply (notionally) that surviving Lethal Force Authorized is an "impossible task" which has "never been done before by anybody" ...?

Answer: I DIDN'T. But you're sure acting as though I did. You're even posting with a tone of having your thunder stolen, despite nothing of the sort being the case.

OF COURSE other Tank builds are capable of surviving Lethal Force Authorized on the regular. Resistance based protection schemes are very good at it, because Resistance "works" against Lethal Force Authorized (while Defense "doesn't" because of the Targeted mechanic, which bypasses Defense protection schemes completely, "negating" almost the entire Super Reflexes primary powerset as a factor).

The way that Lethal Force Authorized "works" makes it uniquely challenging for Super Reflexes, because of the mismatch in protection schemes. This creates something of a high hurdle for a Super Reflexes Tanker (such as myself, but also others) to overcome through build strategy, and if necessary, use of powers plus consumables. Super Reflexes is "less than ideal" for the factors you need to be able to survive being hit by Lethal Force Authorized (since the attack is basically Kryptonite to Defense protection schemes).

That's why I not only wanted to find a solution to the problem (since details on how to do so are ... scarce ... here on the Rebirth Forums) and explain how the solution I've found WORKS so that others can learn from the example. That then makes knowledge and information about means and methods clearer for new players who come to Rebirth, or even existing players who want to bring new alts into regular rotations for iTrials who might want to know how to overcome this challenge.

Feel free to post your own insights on the topic (in your own thread, so you can take credit for what you know) so that EVERYONE can benefit from your experiences, not just yourself.

Knowledge Shared Is Knowledge Multiplied.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMIncluded below is the Data Chunk for anyone who wants to see my take on an SR/ Tanker that, months ago now, tanked War Walkers several times.

Unfortunately, I cannot get Mids' Reborn to work/run on my computer, so whatever information is contained within that Data Chunk is inaccessible to me.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMThe only death I had was from one yutz who insisted on standing next to me while we were both targeted, meaning that I had to survive two Lethal Force Authorized, something that most of my other tanking characters with better armor sets could survive multiples of with little trouble. Your equation does not include the reality that other yutzes will stand next to you and force you to endure multiple LFAs.

I was not aware that it was possible to multi-stack LFAs onto Targeted Players in overlapping AoEs.
So that's new information that should probably have been shared more widely/thoroughly.

The simplest counter to that problem (tactical positioning relative to allies) that I can think of would be to use Hover (or other power that grants flight) to stay "above the fray" down on the ground. By extending the battle into 3D space above the floor, as the aggro magnet you reduce the risk of allies (below you) being Targeted for special attacks. By reducing the opportunities for allies to be near the aggro magnet, you reduce the number of allies who can be Targeted (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=praetorianidf.extinction_war_walker.targeting_reticule&at=minion_grunt) for special attacks, increasing the survival rate of all allies in the fight.

Of course, execution of that strategy will require the use of both a Taunt and (ideally) a ranged attack power, the latter of which are obtainable from an Epic/Patrol Pool powerset. The Threat Formula (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Threat) requires damage as a multiplier factor, so being able to apply damage while Taunting from out of melee range (to stay away from allies on the ground) becomes the smart play.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMI'd add that tanking WW's is something that I've been forced to do with +1 Brutes because no one else would tank. Both times I had to do that went fine, by the way.

Scary!  :-X
If you've got a Resistance based protection scheme, you should be alright (if you're operating at the 85% Energy Resistance cap for Brutes).

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMI appreciate your experimentation with Valiance. On its own it is a supremely mediocre power. Knowing that it will cause Panacea to proc on other players makes it an interesting option. Thank you for that.

We make every pretense of competency around here. ;D

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMBut any attempt on your part to celebrate actually surviving the War Walkers (which is a basic requirement of tanking I-trials and that has already been done on SR, as well as other, much better equipped powersets) seems like self-absorbed flexing.

Yes, it's been done before.
But I've had trouble doing it.

The simple fact of the matter is that in many ways, Super Reflexes (as a powerset) is basically optimized for "tanking trash" (Minions, LTs, Bosses, Elite Bosses) ... but will often times tend to fall short when confronted by AVs, particularly ones with "special attack mechanics" that completely bypass Super Reflexes as a protection scheme. This makes Super Reflexes "great" with leveling content (especially when exemplared) but not particularly great when confronting FINAL BOSS type encounters, because of all the ways that special attacks tend to bypass Defense but not Resistance ... which is a problem for a protection scheme that is all Defense with next to no Resistance.

Figuring out schemes, methods and synergies to overcome that "well known weakness" in Super Reflexes, as a powerset and as a protection method, is something that ought to be shared with others, rather than something that should be kept hidden and private.

Knowledge Shared Is Knowledge Multiplied.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMWhy you can't celebrate anyone else's previous accomplishments in this area is beyond me.

Because I don't KNOW EVERYTHING.
I'm not intimately familiar with everyone else's builds, strategies, playstyles, tips, tricks and tactics. Just because someone else can do something doesn't mean I know everything about how they do it.

There is precious little information on this topic here on the Rebirth Forums.
Why are you so aghast that I'm doing anything at all to fill that void with accessible knowledge?

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMPlenty of other people have figured our how to survive it just fine, even on lame SR. Would it really kill you to just ask how?

Kismet. Your resentment is showing.
Now it's starting to sound like a grudge, perhaps verging on spite at this point.

And remember, you're not just talking to me here ... you're talking to everyone else who ever comes to Rebirth and reads these forums. Think about how what you're saying will sound to anyone new who comes to Rebirth and reads what you're saying to me. If you didn't know anyone here and saw this level of malice and resentment being thrown around in the forums, would you want to join a server with potentially toxic "know it all" players?

These forums are not a private discord or an in-game private tell.
Trash talking and "git gud" may be par for the course in PvP games, but I'd hate to think of it becoming the expectation in a City of Heroes server. Why? Because we're better than that.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMActual Facetanking, meaning simply fighting the Avatar of Hamidon, only requires a few T2 or T3 Sturdies, used one at a time, along with some modest support, unless it's a full League without much support. In that case, T4 Sturdies or multiples of lower tier are required. With really good support, the Sturdies probably aren't necessary at all.

That's what I figured would probably be necessary.
Facetanking the Avatar is a really unique challenge for an aggro magnet, if you want to be able to survive doing it reliably (no questions asked). Quite a few powersets are very well suited to doing it, while others will tend to struggle more. Getting detoggled due to endurance drain being the Big Threat™ ...  :o

My experience from participating in Underground iTrials is that Facetanking the Avatar is riskier and is more likely to distribute Debt to more participants. I often times see a lot more defeated allies when the strategy is Facetanking the Avatar ... which is great for people with Vengeance, but not so great otherwise, in my estimation.

I agree that the ditch strategy is something of a "cheese" way of doing things, but it's also a Clever Use Of Game Mechanics by players. If it means fewer allies get faceplanted during the encounter, I'd call that preferable (even if it is a bit "cheese" to do it).
Title: Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PM

QuoteBecause I am not familiar with them.
I haven't followed your exploits, nor do I see reference to them here in the Rebirth Forums where I might be able to access that information.

Wow. You really do play with your monitor turned off.

I've tanked everything with an SR Tanker right in front of you at least 8 times. There's no reason for me to post on the forums or blow my own horn when I can just do the thing. The game is the final arbiter of success in these cases because you either survived or your didn't. That's all we're doing here, Redlynne, the thing. In this case the 'thing' is tanking big bad guys, avoiding dying in most cases, and then getting right back up in the unfortunate event of getting killed.

QuoteI was not aware that it was possible to multi-stack LFAs onto Targeted Players in overlapping AoEs.
So that's new information that should probably have been shared more widely/thoroughly.

I don't believe I've ever seen you ask a single question. Why on earth should it be incumbent on the rest of us to explain every detail to you? Especially when you behave as if you're an authority. It's particularly maddening when you come in with false information about how Targeted works. Rather than confirming it with anyone who tanks regularly (there are only two of us most nights), you just started telling everyone the wrong thing.

QuoteThe way that Lethal Force Authorized "works" makes it uniquely challenging for Super Reflexes, because of the mismatch in protection schemes. This creates something of a high hurdle for a Super Reflexes Tanker (such as myself, but also others) to overcome through build strategy, and if necessary, use of powers plus consumables. Super Reflexes is "less than ideal" for the factors you need to be able to survive being hit by Lethal Force Authorized (since the attack is basically Kryptonite to Defense protection schemes

See? Even here you're explaining to me how a powerset I've already successfully played in Incarnate trials works. Since I've played that character right in front of you at least eight times, and I referenced Haste extensively in my previous post and went so far as to include the Mids Data Chunk and provide a basic explanation of how that really simple character works, I can only assume that you're being intentionally obtuse. This is exactly what I mean by condescension. Why on earth would I want to attempt to tell you anything when you're only going to ignore what I've said and, much more importantly, what I've DONE in-game, and just go on explaining like you have exclusive access to the game stats or somehow have ownership of a powerset?

QuoteBut I've had trouble doing it.

The simple fact of the matter is that in many ways, Super Reflexes (as a powerset) is basically optimized for "tanking trash" (Minions, LTs, Bosses, Elite Bosses) ... but will often times tend to fall short when confronted by AVs, particularly ones with "special attack mechanics" that completely bypass Super Reflexes as a protection scheme. This makes Super Reflexes "great" with leveling content (especially when exemplared) but not particularly great when confronting FINAL BOSS type encounters, because of all the ways that special attacks tend to bypass Defense but not Resistance ... which is a problem for a protection scheme that is all Defense with next to no Resistance.

Once again, this is more explanation of things I already know, and that you SHOULD know that I know because, once more, I've tanked all that stuff right in front of you, several times. Other players commented (not just Merc), multiple times, on how refreshing it was to see an SR Tanker not only dispensing with the WW's rather easily (excepting for the yutz episode), but also facetanking the Avatar of Hamidon. So not only do you regularly ignore what happens in the game, you don't read the league chat. The irony of that is that you fill league chat with announcements about your respecs, using your Destiny power, and the near useless Victory Rush.

Additionally, your issues with the War Walkers are a YOU problem, not an US problem. I really tried with you several times when you first arrived on Rebirth, but you were immune to learning because you knew 'better' in every instance.

QuoteAnd remember, you're not just talking to me here ... you're talking to everyone else who ever comes to Rebirth and reads these forums. Think about how what you're saying will sound to anyone new who comes to Rebirth and reads what you're saying to me. If you didn't know anyone here and saw this level of malice and resentment being thrown around in the forums, would you want to join a server with potentially toxic "know it all" players?

Oh, the irony. You don't consider at all that your writing reads like you're the ULTIMATE know-it-all. As mentioned previously, you fill league chat with self-involved references, but you can't even read enough to figure out who the main tank is many nights, despite that detail being clearly sorted out already.

I think it's very clear that I'm talking to you and only you. You won't find a similar reaction from me anywhere in the forums.

As I mentioned, I repeatedly tried to share knowledge with you when you first showed up on Rebirth, yet you consistently responded like you did above with condescending explanations of powers and power sets rather than even considering that I was giving you new information or a practical work around. I think my 'favorite' example of this behavior was when you were having difficulty dealing with the Avatar's Cripple power and I suggested that you simply use a t4 CaB to counteract the effects. You then explained to me that it was a -Rec effect! As if I didn't know that? You'd watched me facetank the Avatar a couple dozens times by the point. I had to painstakingly explain to you that you simply wait for your endurance bar to get into the 20% range and then pop the CaB.

I'm happy to share my acquired knowledge and experience with anyone who's interested, but I literally cannot recall a single question you've asked, beyond who was tanking, which was usually sorted out less than five minutes earlier. Furthermore, the constant push back and explanation of things that I obviously must be aware of from actually SUCCEEDING with the powerset, such as the extreme limitations of the SR set in main tanking Incarnate Trials, discourages me from even trying.

Go on blaming anyone else if you have to, but you're the one dropping dead dozens and dozens of times, making 16-20 people (on average) sit around waiting for you to do something that other players regularly do without significant issue. All most people will remember is that you can't do the thing.
Title: Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Redlynne on Dec 19, 2024, 05:47 PM
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMWow. You really do play with your monitor turned off.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMThere's no reason for me to post on the forums
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMI don't believe I've ever seen you ask a single question. Why on earth should it be incumbent on the rest of us to explain every detail to you? Especially when you behave as if you're an authority.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMIt's particularly maddening when you come in with false information about how Targeted works. Rather than confirming it with anyone who tanks regularly (there are only two of us most nights), you just started telling everyone the wrong thing.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMSee? Even here you're explaining to me how a powerset I've already successfully played in Incarnate trials works.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMOnce again, this is more explanation of things I already know, and that you SHOULD know that I know because, once more, I've tanked all that stuff right in front of you, several times.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMSo not only do you regularly ignore what happens in the game, you don't read the league chat. The irony of that is that you fill league chat with announcements about your respecs, using your Destiny power, and the near useless Victory Rush.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMAdditionally, your issues with the War Walkers are a YOU problem, not an US problem.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMI really tried with you several times when you first arrived on Rebirth, but you were immune to learning because you knew 'better' in every instance.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMOh, the irony. You don't consider at all that your writing reads like you're the ULTIMATE know-it-all.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMAs mentioned previously, you fill league chat with self-involved references, but you can't even read enough to figure out who the main tank is many nights, despite that detail being clearly sorted out already.

Wow. :o
I had no idea you were so self-righteously butthurt and nursing a petty grudge that debilitating this whole time. I mean, you're dredging up events from over 2 (or is it 3?) years ago as your excuse for (still!) feeling spiteful and malicious now.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMI think it's very clear that I'm talking to you and only you. You won't find a similar reaction from me anywhere in the forums.

While on the contrary, I'm talking to anyone and everyone who might come along and want to read these forums in the future, perhaps to learn a few things.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMAs I mentioned, I repeatedly tried to share knowledge with you when you first showed up on Rebirth, yet you consistently responded like you did above with condescending explanations of powers and power sets rather than even considering that I was giving you new information or a practical work around. I think my 'favorite' example of this behavior was when you were having difficulty dealing with the Avatar's Cripple power and I suggested that you simply use a t4 CaB to counteract the effects. You then explained to me that it was a -Rec effect! As if I didn't know that? You'd watched me facetank the Avatar a couple dozens times by the point. I had to painstakingly explain to you that you simply wait for your endurance bar to get into the 20% range and then pop the CaB.

I don't doubt that happened, but it probably happened so long ago (multiple years past by this point?) that I honestly don't remember that conversation.

The details, of course, check out (use blue inspirations to counter Avatar Cripple, but time their use so as to not waste them) and is good advice.

As a Player, I'm not in the habit of using inspirations ... even using orange inspirations to survive Lethal Force Authorized prior to my latest respec was something "new" for me to do. Partially that's a matter of wanting to enjoy the "challenge" of doing content on powers alone by default (a sort of self-imposed Harder Mode™), but it's also because I so rarely need to use inspirations in regular gameplay that I often discount their usefulness except in clutch situation edge cases, which can be a bit of a blind spot on my part. So more of a perception/perspective problem than anything else.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMI'm happy to share my acquired knowledge and experience with anyone who's interested

Considering the RANT SCREED you've delivered, I have my doubts about the sincerity behind that statement.

I'll be generous and assume you mean you'd be happy to share knowledge and experience with anyone else BUT me.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMbut I literally cannot recall a single question you've asked, beyond who was tanking, which was usually sorted out less than five minutes earlier.

And given the RANT SCREED you've delivered above ... I now know better than to ask you.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMFurthermore, the constant push back and explanation of things that I obviously must be aware of from actually SUCCEEDING with the powerset, such as the extreme limitations of the SR set in main tanking Incarnate Trials, discourages me from even trying.

I'm at least showing my work and explaining the thought process going on behind the assertions I'm making. If I make a mistake, TELL ME.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMGo on blaming anyone else if you have to, but you're the one dropping dead dozens and dozens of times, making 16-20 people (on average) sit around waiting for you to do something that other players regularly do without significant issue. All most people will remember is that you can't do the thing.

I had my first faceplant in little over a week last night during MoM (phase 1).
New respec with new powers and I hadn't gotten my muscle memory updated through enough practice sorting out where new powers get keybound yet. Accidentally hit Blink and teleported into a pile of Pink Puddle and couldn't get out fast enough because of action queuing.

If I were to count up "dozens and dozens" (minimum 25, for the sake of conversation) of defeats during iTrials, I'd need to go back something like 6+ months to accumulate that many defeats. So nice try at hyperbole with the intent to insult and wound ... but I definitely know better on this particular score.

Granted, EVERYONE struggles with Main Tanking when they start and are new to the practice (not just theory), and at first I struggled too, sometimes with multiple defeats per Trial (especially around the War Walkers) ... but that's "ancient history" now, and isn't exactly relevant to current experience.

I guess the difference between us is that I don't resent people for learning.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMSince I've played that character right in front of you at least eight times, and I referenced Haste extensively in my previous post and went so far as to include the Mids Data Chunk and provide a basic explanation of how that really simple character works, I can only assume that you're being intentionally obtuse.

1. Just because I've participated in iTrials where Haste was Main Tanking (successfully) doesn't mean I "dropped everything" to watch you do it while you were doing it.
2. Just because YOU know something, doesn't mean everyone else automagically does too.
3. You provided a data chunk to Mids. I said I can't get Mids to run on my computer (I've said this MANY TIMES here on the forums and in-game). I can only assume you're being deliberately snide and condescending, in addition to being an arrogant jerk.

Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 04:24 PMThis is exactly what I mean by condescension. Why on earth would I want to attempt to tell you anything

/em patient deep breath

Because what you say here isn't just read by me.
It can be read by anyone.

Even if *I* can't comprehend or accept your assertions, or understand the thinking or the logic behind what you're saying ... that doesn't mean no one else coming along months later and reading this will have the same perspectives or understanding that I do.

I do NOT claim to be a Know It All.
If anything, I'm painfully aware of my shortcomings with respect to the completion bar for that badge title.

What I DO claim is TRANSPARENCY ... I show my work and lay out my reasoning for why I see things the way I do and weight various choices the way I do. I do that not to be a "show off" as you so blithely assert, but so as to make my process accessible for peer review. That way others can comment on the steps involved, find any errors, and possibly even learn something that was not previously known before.

Even "wrong answers" can have value, because proven "wrong answers" demonstrate how something DOESN'T work ... narrowing the set of possibilities in the direction of correct answers that do. It's possible to learn more from failure than you can from success (assuming you're willing to LEARN that is).

"Even the most inept student may still have something to teach the master."
Title: Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Kismet on Dec 20, 2024, 01:00 AM
Uh-huh
Title: Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Redlynne on Dec 28, 2024, 08:46 PM
Quote from: Redlynne on Dec 18, 2024, 08:04 PMSurviving a War Walker's Lethal Force Authorized (https://cod.uberguy.net/html/power.html?power=praetorianidf.extinction_war_walker_lethal_force_authorized.lethal_force_authorized&at=minion_pets) as a Main Tank theory crafting:

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2

My understanding is that War Walkers calculate as Level 55 Foes, making them +2 vs Incarnate (+3). Due to Purple Patch (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Purple_Patch) modifiers, this increases the amount of damage delivered per DoT tick by +22%.
1060.2 * 1.22 = 1293.444 Energy damage per tick, 4x over 4s

@ 44.75% (minimum) Energy Resistance: 1293.444 * (1-0.4475) = 714.62781 Energy damage taken per tick, 4x over 4s

Practiced Brawler @ 295.92 Absorb every 0.5s: 714.62781 - 295.92 = 418.70781 Energy damage taken to Health per tick, 4x over 4s

418.70781 * 4 = 1674.83124 Energy damage taken to Health in total

During those 4 seconds, because Regeneration ticks are happening every ~1.56s, a minimum of 2 Regeneration ticks ought to occur while Lethal Force Authorized is continuing to deal damage (possibly 3 Regeneration ticks, depending on timing, but for the purposes of this analysis, I'm assuming a "worst case scenario" of only 2 Regeneration ticks).

1674.83124 - (158.00716*2) = 1358.81692 Energy damage taken to Health (net, after Absorb and Regeneration)

The build has 3160.1432 Max Health.
3160.1432 - 1358.81692 = +1801.32628 margin of Health

So even if I'm wrong and there's 5 ticks of Energy damage instead of only 4 (initial + 4), there's still a comfortable margin of safety.

(418.70781 * 5) - (158.00716*2) = 1777.52473 Energy damage taken to Health (net, after Absorb and Regeneration)

So absolute worst case scenario, 3160.1432 - 1777.52473 = +1382.61847 margin of Health ... which should be enough to face tank Lethal Force Authorized without requiring additional support measures (powers, buffs, inspirations, etc.), even when taking additional damage from extra Foes in the vicinity.

Something is wrong with my computations in the above, and I'm trying to figure out what it might be.

Today when I was main tanking the Underground Trial, before calling everyone to join in on the beatdown I got hit by Lethal Force Authorized ... and twice (on the 2nd and 3rd Warwalkers, while pulling them to their respective locations) I was taking 1000 Energy damage per tick from Lethal Force Authorized ... on a build with 3160.15 Max Health and a Practiced Brawler Absorb of 295.92 every 0.5s.

The first time, I was running "unbuffed" to test my build strategy ... and got taken to zero Health and faceplanted.

The second time, I saw the Lethal Force Authorized notification come up and had Destiny: T4 Rebirth Radial add enough +Regeneration to survive without faceplanting.

But both times, I was taking 1000 Energy damage ticks ... and I'm not quite sure why.
The reason why I'm not sure why I was taking 1000 Energy damage DoT ticks is because my new build has 44.75% Energy Resistance (minimum, can go up with scaling resistances from Reactive Defenses and the Super Reflexes passives stacking). However, the way that Lethal Force Authorized "works" is that it resolves the attack first, so all the damage to deal gets "programmed" in advance from the start, rather than "checking" resistances against each damage tick being dealt. That means that whatever your resistances are at the START of the attack are what matter, not what your resistances wind up being at the END. Resistances that go up as the DoT ticks land DO NOT MATTER, since the damage to be dealt has all been determined in advance of the DoT ticks actually landing (if that makes any sense).

So if I was taking 1000 Energy damage per DoT tick @ 44.75% Energy resistance from Lethal Force Authorized:

1000 / (1-0.4475) ≈ 1810 Energy damage "raw" per tick prior to computing Resistances
1810 / 3534 Tanker Max Health = 51.21675156% "raw" damage per DoT tick

Now supposedly ... the Energy damage per DoT tick from Lethal Force Authorized is supposed to be 30% of Max Health, but that's before factoring in the Purple Patch (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Purple_Patch).

51.21675156 / 30 = 1.70722505x

Purple Patch +6 = 1.66x
Purple Patch +7 = 1.77x

So a 1.707x result isn't matching all that well against expectations, since it basically means the War Walkers would basically be Level +6.5 relative to my 50(+3) ... which doesn't make sense.



However ... all of the above is operating on a supposition that the Purple Patch factor only applies to the War Walker's damage output ... and has no relevance for my protection, which probably isn't true. This could well explain why my calculations didn't work out as planned in practice.

I was expecting to take ~715 Energy damage per DoT tick.
Instead, I was taking 1000 Energy damage per DoT tick ... which then begs the question of WHY.



Looking at the Purple Patch (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Purple_Patch) table, if we assume that War Walkers are +2 relative to a 50(+3) Incarnate, and apply the Above multipliers to the War Walker and the Below multipliers to a $Target's protection (in this case, Energy Resistance) and recompute:

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.22 = 1293.444 Energy damage per tick

44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.8 Purple Patch multiplier = 35.8% Energy Resistance
1293.444 * (1-0.358) = 830.391048 Energy damage per tick

This is less than 1000 Energy damage per tick, so the supposition that War Walkers compute as being +2 vs 50(+3) Incarnates is probably incorrect.



So then, what happens if we shift the goalposts and presume that War Walkers compute as being +3 vs 50(+3) Incarnates for the purposes of the Purple Patch (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Purple_Patch) adjustments?

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.33 = 1410.066 Energy damage per tick

44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 29.0875% Energy Resistance
1410.066 * (1-0.290875) = 999.91305225 Energy damage per tick

Aha.
There's my 1000 Energy damage per Tick computational result!

War Walkers compute as if they were +3 Levels above a 50(+3) Incarnate for the purposes of Purple Patch (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Purple_Patch) scaling of attacks and protections ... NOT as +2.



So if my build has only 3160.15 Max Health and I'm getting a 295.92 Absorb every 0.5s from Practiced Brawler ... and I'm only able to receive 2 Regeneration ticks of healing for 158 Health each, then the maximum damage that my build can withstand during the 4s of Lethal Force Authorized DoT duration is:

3160.15 + 295.92*4 + 158*2 = 4659.83 Damage max

Taking into account the fact that Lethal Force Authorized is dealing a "worst case scenario" of 4x 1000 Energy damage ... that's not a lot of margin to spare for "extra" damage coming from the adds congregating around the War Walkers, because there's almost a dozen of them, and even @ 5% chance to hit 60+% Defense (melee/ranged/aoe) there's still going to be "some" damage leaking through at the most inopportune of times.

In other words, that "margin" of 659.83 Health doesn't look adequate for the task when trying to pull a War Walker into position (which makes melee attacks for +Resistance procs from Tanker ATOs not relevant).



So what happens if I use a +10% Resistance Inspiration? How does that change the results during the vulnerable part of the pull duration?

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.33 = 1410.066 Energy damage per tick

10+44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 35.5875% Energy Resistance
1410.066 * (1-0.355875) = 908.25876225 Energy damage per tick

4659.83 - 908.25*4 = 1026.83 Health margin (out of 3160.15 Max Health)

In other words, a +10% Resistance Inspiration is worth an extra +367 Health margin against a Lethal Force Authorized survival check ... and obviously, more Energy Resistance is better for this particular application.



Looks like I need to go back to bringing 4-5 Resistance Inspirations with me anytime I want to main tank on Underground Trial runs.

On my previous build with Redlynne, I was needing to use +20-30% from Resistance Inspirations (typically using 2 at a time) in order to survive Lethal Force Authorized, which was part of why I feared it so much, since Gadgetry: Force Barrier for +Absorb wasn't enough on its own, I still needed higher Energy Resistances than the 24.5% I was working with back then.

This means that the new build is "stronger" in this regard, so it needs less "temporary augmentation" from Inspirations to achieve the necessary safety margin, and the new build is more "automated" with fewer Click powers needed to make survival against Lethal Force Authorized "work" properly ... so the new build is definitely much safer in that respect.



Hmmmm.
Destiny: Rebirth Radial Epiphany (for a Tanker) heals 856.7176 Health immediately, and applies:
+1000% Regeneration for 10s
+200% Regeneration for 30s
+200% Regeneration for 60s
+200% Regeneration for 120s
All of which stack ... so +1600%, then +600%, then +400%, then +200% Regeneration for the duration.

If I "saved" my Rebirth click for use AFTER the damage from Lethal Force Authorized hit, and clicked Rebirth while the DoT was ticking, I'd have "plenty" of Health margin remaining, even without using a Resistance Inspiration.

Always good to have fallback options, in case of confusion in the moment (or getting "trapped" animating an attack for too long).
Title: Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Martial Arts / Martial Prowess = NO . GET . HITSU !!!
Post by: Redlynne on Jan 01, 2025, 01:58 PM
Quote from: Redlynne on Dec 28, 2024, 08:46 PMSo then, what happens if we shift the goalposts and presume that War Walkers compute as being +3 vs 50(+3) Incarnates for the purposes of the Purple Patch (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Purple_Patch) adjustments?

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.33 = 1410.066 Energy damage per tick

44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 29.0875% Energy Resistance
1410.066 * (1-0.290875) = 999.91305225 Energy damage per tick

Aha.
There's my 1000 Energy damage per Tick computational result!

War Walkers compute as if they were +3 Levels above a 50(+3) Incarnate for the purposes of Purple Patch (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Purple_Patch) scaling of attacks and protections ... NOT as +2.



So if my build has only 3160.15 Max Health and I'm getting a 295.92 Absorb every 0.5s from Practiced Brawler ... and I'm only able to receive 2 Regeneration ticks of healing for 158 Health each, then the maximum damage that my build can withstand during the 4s of Lethal Force Authorized DoT duration is:

3160.15 + 295.92*4 + 158*2 = 4659.83 Damage max

Taking into account the fact that Lethal Force Authorized is dealing a "worst case scenario" of 4x 1000 Energy damage

Looks like I've underestimated Lethal Force Authorized yet again.
I suspect that it's not 4 ticks of damage over 4 seconds, it's actually 5 ticks over 4 seconds.
If that's the case, then my build seen above is falling EVER SO SLIGHTLY SHORT of the mark on being able to survive a hit from Lethal Force Authorized.

Also note that AT Max Health * 0.3 * 1.33 * 5 = 199.5% of AT Max Health over 4 seconds vs Level 50(+3) Incarnates

In other words, Lethal Force Authorized is basically calibrated to deliver 2x AT Max Health in Energy damage to anyone hit by it ... which limits the possible paths to survival down to a combination of Energy Resistance, Regeneration, Healing and/or Absorb. Gets harder when your own Max Health is lower than your AT Max Health limit, forcing an increasing demand on Energy Resistance, Regeneration, Healing and/or Absorb in order to compensate for the shortfall.

3160.15 + 295.92*5 + 158*2 = 4955.75 Max Damage intake to faceplant (in build above)

Lethal Force Authorized
Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.33 = 1410.066 Energy damage per tick

44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 29.0875% Energy Resistance (normalized)
1410.066 * (1-0.290875) = 999.91305225 Energy damage per tick

999.91305225 * 5 = 4999.56526125 Energy damage taken from Lethal Force Authorized

4955.75 - 4999.56526125 = -43.81526125 Health shortfall to surviving Lethal Force Authorized without needing to resort to use of Inspirations

Call it -44 Health short of the goal for this build. :'(
By focusing so heavily on +Regeneration (for higher HP/sec) over +Max Health, a vulnerability has been exposed when it comes to surviving direct hits from Lethal Force Authorized.

This particular weakness can be overcome by use of Inspirations (+Resist before being hit, +Heal while damage is being taken but before faceplanting).

- OR -

I could make a new build that puts more emphasis on +Max Health and Energy Resistance at the expense of some +Regeneration. Right now, my total +Regeneration is in the range of +668.85% (which is A LOT) and yields 1/20th of (my) Max Health every ~1.56s. I could afford to let that total stack of +Regeneration "fall" to as low as +500% (combined) and still be getting 1 Regeneration tick every 2 seconds, an important breakpoint for dealing with Lethal Force Authorized. However, for a variety of reasons ArcanaTime (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/ArcanaTime) being one of them), letting +Regeneration fall below +506.07% is to be avoided (since that yields a Regeneration tick every 1.98s). Preferentially, +Regeneration should not fall below +549.35%, since that yields a Regeneration tick every 1.848s ... which is "fast enough" to get 2 ticks within a 4 second window.

Incidentally, achieving 3 Regeneration ticks within a 4 second window of time would require +800% Regeneration (total, from all bonuses), which isn't a realistic goal within the context of the rest of the build that I'm working with.



Another alternative would be to modify the build such that I can add just +1.5% more Energy Resistance into the mix while keeping all other build parameters the same.

(44.75% + 1.5%) = 46.25% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 30.0625% Energy Resistance
1410.066 * (1-0.300625) = 986.16490875 Energy damage per tick

986.16490875 * 5 = 4930.82454375 Energy damage taken from Lethal Force Authorized

4955.75 - 4930.82454375 = +24.92545625 Health margin to surviving Lethal Force Authorized without needing to resort to use of Inspirations



So the moral of the story is, for any further rebuild iteration on the above build, I'm going to need:
The more I can "push" the build in those directions, the more "margin" I'll have to be able to survive being hit by Lethal Force Authorized without needing to resort to use of Inspirations. As matters stand, my build is "on the wrong side of the cusp" by a mere 2.34% of Tanker AT Base Health ... so with a few build adjustments, this challenge CAN be overcome. 8)



I've already got an idea for how such a goal can be achieved, but it involves "reprogramming" the enhancement slots for multiple powers, so there's a bit of a TETRIS factor involved that I'll need to investigate more thoroughly before committing to another update and respec.
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