The other day I was tooling around in Mids just randomly seeking inspiration and thought to myself: "You know what, I don't know if I've ever seen a Night Widow player running around. I don't remember them, so let's take a look in Mids and see what they have."
That is when I discovered that Night Widow kind of... doesn't have a reason to exist. Everything a Night Widow can do, a Fortunata can do better. Moreover, Night Widow feels unfinished; they get far fewer powers unlocked than Fortunata, Crab, or Bane do, and those powers are adding little to their kit.
So what's the difference then, eh? Well, let's take a look.
FortunataQuoteFull array of psychic blast options. If you like Psychic Blast, you'll like Fortunata, as there's really nothing missing here.
Full base suite of claw-like attacks with added toxic damage, -recharge, -speed, and a smattering of -regeneration. This is common to all Widows.
Fortunata Teamwork (their armor) offers a stealth, Mind Link (PBAoE +def (all) & +res (psionic)), a single target confuse, a unique version of Vengeance, and Aura of Confusion (mag 3 PBAoE Confuse on 240s cooldown).
Mask Presence, the stealth, is... odd. If you go pure psychic blast route, it's really just a standard imperfect stealth. If you go hybrid and mix in some melee attacks, those melee attacks can crit from stealth.
Night WidowQuoteMental Blast, which is staying thematically in-character I guess?
Build Up, which is mutually exclusive to the base kit's Follow Up (both are good, this will largely come down to personal preference).
Smoke Grenade, which is again largely thematic. Not a bad power, but not build defining in any measure.
Slash, which is an excellent single target claw attack and your preferred opener from Mask Presence.
Eviscerate, which is essentially the same as Claw's version with the usual Widow add-ons.
Psychic Scream, which is lifted from Psychic Blast as per usual.
For Widow Teamwork, their 'armor' set, they get:
Mask Presence (stealth)
Mental Training (+spd, +recharge)
Mind Link (see Fortunata)
Placate (necessary for stealthcrit playstyle if you're not a Stalker)
Tactical Training: Vengeance (see Fortunata, but it's just easier to access Vengeance really)
Elude, as seen on TV- I mean as taken directly from Super Reflexes with all of its upsides and downsides.
So Night Widow is essentially just base kit Widow except it gets Placate, Slash, and Build Up. The rest of it I could take or leave.
By comparison, Fortunata can hybridize and have the same damage potential with the addition of full melee and ranged attack chains, should they wish to do so.
Fortunata is, in my opinion, the only real viable route for Widows, but even then I don't especially recommend them outside of very specific circumstances. Widows, you see, are squishy. Like both of the Villainous Epic Archetypes (VEATs), they thrive with heavy investment and incarnate scaling. With both active, Widows can pull off some truly silly nonsense. On the other hand, put 'em on a Secret Master of <strike force> (SMo) and what you have is a pretend Stalker with none of their defenses and a pale shade of their damage.
What, don't believe me? I've been literally one-shot by an AV on Barracuda's SMo strike force from an AoE targeting the tank. I didn't have aggro, and I certainly wasn't getting punched in the face... but that single attack was all it took to remove me from the fight and fail the SMo. Widows simply do not have the mitigation necessary to stand toe to toe in melee.
Why roll a Widow? Let's take a look.
ProsQuoteStylish as hell.
Premium psychic/natural assassins thematically.
Excellent team support through innate Leadership abilities, which can stack with pool Leadership.
Mind Link. There's a reason almost everyone who takes Widow seriously does their best to make this permanent, which can be a bit of a challenge since it doesn't accept Recharge Enhancements (for some reason?).
ConsQuoteRedraw. If you want to switch between psychic blast attacks and claw attacks, you're going to have to redraw every single time.
Squishy. Poor personal defenses overall.
Average damage. 1.0 damage scale to both ranged and melee.
Average max HP at 2409.5. This is about 400 HP higher than Stalker, but without an armor set. It is tied with Scrappers (as well as other EATs).
Weapon customization. You'd think that, using claws, they would get claws customization options. Like Soldier, they do not. You only get basic Arachnos Claws options, of which there are few.
Uniform customization. Few to no enhancements have been made to the uniform since its inception, with the most egregious offenders being the lack of newer hairstyles added since Widows were released.
So what do others think? Am I way off base here? I've seen more Regeneration characters than I have Night Widows, and considering that Regeneration is the worst armor set in PvE (but is excellent in PvP!), that seems rather strange.
Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 09:33 AMThat is when I discovered that Night Widow kind of... doesn't have a reason to exist. Everything a Night Widow can do, a Fortunata can do better.
I wouldn't be quite so quick to come to that conclusion.
City of Data v1.0 (internet archived):
LINK (http://web.archive.org/web/20141018224327/http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/)
City of Data v1.0 Arachnos Widow:
LINK (http://web.archive.org/web/20140705004729/http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/archetype.php?at=13)
My reason for pulling these links is because they do not include any modifications by Homecoming and represent the legacy/LIVE server (2012) stats for cross comparison review.
Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 09:33 AMBuild Up, which is mutually exclusive to the base kit's Follow Up (both are good, this will largely come down to personal preference).
One really major difference here is utility/use cases between these two powers.
Follow Up:
- Range: 7 ft
- Recharge: 12 seconds
- Target: Foe
- +10% ToHit for 10s (after 0.2 second delay)
- +30% Dmg(All Types) for 10s (after 0.2 second delay)
Build Up:
- Range: -
- Recharge: 90 seconds
- Target: Self
- +20% ToHit for 10s
- +80% Dmg(All Types) for 10s
The major MAJOR difference between these two powers is that Follow Up is an attack that requires you to hit something. Follow Up CAN be used for an auto-crit out of Hidden status, but then you aren't getting the +30% bonus damage out of Hide on the auto-crit. Furthermore, to my knowledge, Follow Up is not self-stackable (it overwrites any remaining duration) so it's not like you can have 2x Follow Up buff stacks going on simultaneously (for a +20%/+60% combination). Another factor is that Follow Up is a melee damaging attack, so you really want to be slotting it for melee damage, which makes things like a 6-slot Gaussian's Set impractical in this power.
By contrast, you CAN use Build Up on yourself for all that lovely bonus damage and THEN still auto-crit out of Hidden status if you want to (with the +80% bonus damage applied to the crit). This means that Build Up works "better" as an alpha striker (self) buff that does not require attacking a (melee) $Target, which in turn makes Build Up more suitable as a buff option for a set of attack powers that concerns itself more with range than with melee. A 6-slot Gaussian's set in this power is quite practical (if you have the slots available for it, that is).
In my estimation, Follow Up is "better" (in the sense of having more uptime) if you're playing in melee with more of a Scrapperlock mindset and playstyle. You can keep the damage buff "up" most of the time so long as there are Foes to smack around in melee. By contrast, Build Up is DEFINITELY the way to go for a more "range based" powerset and playstyle, or simply one where you want to be damage buffed for your opening attacks (from Hide for auto-crits or not) and want a more "bursty" type of playstyle rather than a "steady stream" of melee buffing type of play.
So for argument and illustration purposes, let's say that you wanted to create a "Ranged Widow" who eschews the melee fighting style in favor of ranged attacks (much like how the Huntsman eschews Mace/Backpack attacks in favor of using the Arachnos Rifle). What happens?
- Poison Dart (single target): 4s recharge, 80ft range
- Dart Burst (30º cone): 8s recharge, 50ft radius (enhanceable!)
- Mental Blast (single target): 4s recharge, 80ft range
- Smoke Grenade (target AoE): 15s recharge, 110ft range, 35ft radius, 60s perception debuff cancels when damaged
- Psychic Scream (30º cone): 16s recharge, 60ft radius (enhanceable!)
Looking at the Smoke Grenade, I get the feeling that it is SERIOUSLY underestimated, for the reason that you (almost) cite ... it's not build defining. However, for a Ranged Widow it most certainly CAN BE.
Why?
Because it allows you to convert "parallel threats" into sequential ones, where YOU get to choose the order of operations to defeat your opposition. Remember, Foes who cannot perceive you cannot target you ... and thus cannot attack you. This means that you can (effectively) "range debuff" your opponents such that only 1 of them (the one you're damaging) can attack you at a time ... at which point, all you have to do is stay out of melee range and you're already "winning" on the protection front.
The downside to this strategy is that it doesn't work all that well in groups (where AoE is getting thrown around like party favors). As soon as a mob affected by Smoke Grenade gets damaged, the Perception debuff drops, so AoE damage is "not your friend" with respect to deployment of this power. BUT ... it does mean that it becomes possible to pick groups apart with single target attacks after using Smoke Grenade (if you've got the patience and/or cooperation to do so). Perhaps a better way to think of how Smoke Grenade "ought to be used" is more like a (poor man's) AoE Placate that enables a DIVIDE TO CONQUER playstyle ... and if your attacks are biased in favor of range rather than melee, you're maximizing your own advantages in contrast to the disadvantages you're heaping upon your Foes.
With enough global recharge from set bonuses (Hasten, et al.) you can actually have a reasonably decent single target ranged attack chain using JUST Poison Dart and Mental Blast. Look at the Arcanatimes for both powers.
- Poison Dart: 1.716s
- Mental Blast: 1.848s
Both powers have a 4s recharge time. Therefore:
- 4 / 1.716 = 2.3310
- 4 / 1.848 = 2.1645
Which means that with a +133.10% or +116.45% global recharge buff (of which perma-Hasten can be +70% and Mental Training adds another +20%) you can simply alternate these 2 single target attacks indefinitely with no downtime, if you wanted to.
With "a lot of global recharge" you can start throwing around Smoke Grenades REPEATABLY in combat ... which means that even if there's
lots of AoE damage getting thrown around (liberally), Foes will still (momentarily) lose Perception of their $Target(s) and thus will need to "reacquire" targeting on You (and your Allies) after they get damaged again. The phrase "wash, rinse, repeat" comes to mind with what you can do with LOTS of global recharge combined with Smoke Grenade, because you can just keep throwing the debuff at them "fast enough" to be noticeable in sustained combat. So it would behave more like a "soft mez" (kind of like a knockdown or a sleep) rather than a "hard mez" (like a hold), but it could have some pretty seriously disruptive implications, both in solo and group play, once you learn the dynamics of how Smoke Grenade ACTUALLY works (and how to take maximum advantage!).
Furthermore, you can Frankenslot the Poison Dart and Psychic Scream cone attack powers with 2-slot Rolling Barrage (+7.5% Range to all powers set bonus) and 2x HO: Damage/Range enhancements (to maximize the cone radius!) leaving 2 slots for procs (-Resistance debuffing always being a good choice!).
Throw either Hover/Fly or Mystic Flight into the mix for "3D keep away" opportunism and you can really stack the deck in your favor, relative to playing a Melee Widow.
You then have a 2x single + 2x cone set of attacks, which then radically prunes down the number of attack powers that you need to find slots for ... which then means you can redistribute a LOT of slots to other aspects of your build plan, severely advantaging your play in
other ways relative to your peers.
My point being, there is plenty of unrealized potential in the
Night Dart Widow ... just like playing a Huntsman (whether HuntsBane or HuntsCrab
bermind) is a different way to play a Soldier of Arachnos. The playstyle may be similar, but there are important differences that yield extremely noticeable changes in HOW YOU PLAY the character.
Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 09:33 AMMind Link (see Fortunata)
You know what I noticed about the differences between Night Widow and Fortunata with respect to Mind Link?
The recharge time(s) ...
- Mind Link (Night Widow): 240s recharge, +5% ToHit for 90s, +30% Res(Psionic) for 90s, +10% All Defense Types, All Defense Positions for 90s
- Mind Link (Fortunata): 300s, +5% ToHit for 90s, +30% Res(Psionic) for 90s, +10% All Defense Types, All Defense Positions for 90s
That makes a difference in how "perma-able" the two branches are, with respect to this power.
- 240 / 90 = 2.6667
- 300 / 90 = 3.3333
Therefore, a Night Widow needs +166.67% global recharge buffing to make this power perma-able, and of that amount, +70% can come from Hasten and +20% can come from Mental Training ... leaving a +76.67% global recharge "demand" from set bonuses in order to make this Mind Link perma (for self and others).
A Fortunata needs 233.33% global recharge buffing to make this power perma-able, and of that amount, +70% can come from Hasten ... leaving a 163.33% global recharge "demand" from set bonuses in order to make this Mind Link perma (for self and others) ... GOOD LUCK with that. Incidentally, I'm thinking that the fact that the amount of global recharge needed being 2.13x as much for a Fortunata as a Night Widow is
not an accident, nor a coincidence. Basically, Night Widows are "better" at Mind Linking (for coordinated defense) than their Fortunata counterparts.
Just because the powers LOOK the same, doesn't mean that they integrate or "build" the same @ Level 50 in a completed build. There are important implications in those differences, especially since Mind Link doesn't accept Recharge enhancements (so you have to use global recharge factors in order to reach perma-able status).
Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 09:33 AMI've seen more Regeneration characters than I have Night Widows
I know that the
Dart Widow build has been tried before (remarkably successfully!) (albeit, not by me, I've never played one) and thoroughly enjoyed, but is almost unheard of in the wider community. If you're wondering how a Night Widow "might be better/more fun to play" than a Fortunata, you might want to give the
really oddball build of the Dart Widow a try and see what you come up with. I'm thinking that Mystic Flight (enabling access to Spirit Ward, Enflame and Rune of Protection) combined with Smoke Grenade could enable some particularly tricky 3D maneuvering/positioning potential that would be extremely unfair to Foes. Also, DEFINITELY go for Combat Training (all) + Tactical Training (all) + Leadership (all toggles+vengeance!) and you'll be a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield ... because EVERYONE AROUND YOU gets BETTER at what they do in your presence, just by the fact of you Being There™!
At the very least, it would be something WELL OFF the well worn and trodden down path of the Blaster/Offender/Corruptor/Soldier route and would be something remarkably unique for you to play. 8)
I'd do it myself, but Redside Zones are entirely too "fatal crash to desktop" RELIABLE for me to even entertain the notion right now.
Ah, here's the link to the post I was thinking about (on Homecoming) ...
LINK (https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/43132-coneann-the-destroyer-night-widow/#comment-560644)
Night Widow build with 5 Cones (thanks to Leviathan Mastery) ... :o
- Dart Burst
- Psychic Scream
- School of Sharks
- Bile Spray
- Arctic Breath
If you Frankenslot all of those Cones with 2x Rolling Barrage + 2x HO: Damage/Range + 2x Procs each ... that will yield (+7.5*5)=+37.5% Range global bonus to ALL powers.
- 50 * 1.375 = 68.75ft ... before including Range slotted into 50ft Cone attacks
- 60 * 1.375 = 82.5ft ... before including Range slotted into 60ft Cone attacks
- 80 * 1.375 = 110ft ... before including +Range buffing 80ft Single Target attacks
Throw in an Alpha slot that offers +Range (Cardiac or Intuition) and you'll have some
SERIOUS "reach out and touch you" power going on!
Might be worth looking into ... ;)
QuoteBuild Up vs. Follow Up
While I'm aware of the differences you stated between Build Up and Follow Up, I'm glad you stated them more succinctly here! I'm largely of the opinion that because Night Widow cannot reliably crit save for start of combat and once per Placate cooldown (assuming nothing goes wrong), I personally consider Follow Up to be the better pick. But I maintain that in terms of average DPS, they're probably pretty close!
QuoteSmoke Grenade
I use this regularly on my current Fire/Devices Blaster and it's a better power than people give it credit for. Having said that, I'm not really convinced it's worth a power pick for a Night Widow unless you really like to solo and you have team size cranked up.
QuoteRanged (Night) Widow
I looked at this briefly in Mids, and quickly determined that it broke my fundamental rule / argument. Yes, with enough set bonuses and recharge you could make a Dart Widow... and immediately become nonfunctional again any time you get malefactored down too far, lose incarnate, and/or lose set bonuses. Pathetic character. A pure ranged Fortunata will have none of those problems.
Is it neat? Sure. Just like Crabbermind, which is also utterly nonfunctional in a lot of scenarios.
Furthermore, you have to dip into psionics to make this character, and that means you're going to be inflicting redraw constantly. People have different tolerances to that, but I personally have next to none. Unless and until such time as Soldiers and Widows get the same treatment that the weapon Assault sets got that removes the redraw problem, I can't deal with it.
QuoteMind Link
I had no idea they weren't the same power between the two Widows! That's a marker against Fortunata, but at the same time, Fortunata has the ability to play completely from range if they so choose and therefore can be much safer.
QuoteConclusions
TLDR: Night Widow cannot be made viable in all PvE content, while Fortunata can. Prove I'm wrong.
Night Widow, to me, should absolutely not have to deal with redraw when using their built-in psionics. It should also have better defenses to handle the melee playstyle it
really wants you to play. The average damage I can handle as a cost to the excellent team buff numbers it's capable of pushing. Personally, I'd prefer to see Build Up dropped and swapped for Envenomed Blades; it's extremely thematically appropriate (but I also know that kind of change is highly unlikely here).
Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 02:28 PMYes, with enough set bonuses and recharge you could make a Dart Widow... and immediately become nonfunctional again any time you get malefactored down too far, lose incarnate, and/or lose set bonuses.
Which then brings up the (obvious) question ... how "low" do you have to go for that condition to be true?
The answer partially depends on your plan for enhancement slotting.
I myself follow an intentional pattern of Levels 22, 27, 31 and "minimum" for enhancement slots.
22 - 3 = Level 19 ... the upper end of a collection of 15-19 flashback arcs
27 - 3 = Level 24 ... the upper end of a collection of 20-24 flashback arcs AND is also above the SO enhancement "break even" point
31 - 3 = Level 28 ... the maximum available for the Moonfire TF and falls within the range of the 25-29 flashback arcs
Procs "don't care" about enhancement levels (except for the purposes of set bonuses) so I just slot set procs at their minimum levels to they're "always working as early as possible" for any global bonuses they might grant.
Levels 19+ and 24+ comprise a supermajority of the content in the game that can be (re)played.
At Levels 18- any IOs you've slotted (aside from purples) will be getting "downgraded" when you exemplar/malefactor anyway, so you're going to FEEL "underpowered" no matter what you do, relative to any sort of Level 50 (incarnate slotted) playing experience.
As for whether or not you can form a "viable" (as opposed to "optimal") attack chain using only ranged and pool attacks at extremely low levels when playing a Widow ...
- Level 1 (Widow Training): Poison Dart
- Level 6 (Widow Training): Dart Burst
- Level 1 (Night Widow Training): Mental Blast
- Level 8 (Night Widow Training): Build Up
- Level 12 (Night Widow Training): Smoke Grenade
- Level 32 (Night Widow Training): Psychic Scream
- Level 4 (Gadgetry): Nano Net
- Level 4 (Gadgetry): Energy Gauntlet
- Level 14 (Gadgetry): Gauntlet Barrage
- Level 20 (Gadgetry): Force Barrier
My point being that you could EASILY dip into the Gadgetry pool as a Dart Widow (not yet a Night Widow) in order to round out a Ranged Only attack chain prior to the Level 24 Respec as a Night Widow ... if you really wanted to. That way, even if you exemplar/malefactor down below Patron Pool Levels, you've still got "most" of your attack chain available to you.
I would also point out that if you decide to take Force Barrier @ Level 20, you would be able to exemplar/malefactor down to Level 15 (Virgil Tarikoss SF, Positron: Rule of Three TF) and still have access to your Force Barrier power for self-protection.
Would your build be "diminished" by going that low when exemplared/malefactored?
Yes.
Would your build be "non-functional" by going that low when exemplared/malefactored?
No.
You'd still be able to attack and defend yourself. You'd still be able to "get around town" ... even if you have to resort to Ninja Run+Sprint to do it. But you'll want to "build carefully" such that you pick your "critical powers" as early as possible so you'll "always have them" when you exemplar/malefactor down to REALLY low levels. Anything you pick during Levels 1-6 will ALWAYS be available to you ... even if you exemplar/malefactor down to Level 1 (because 6-5=1). So whatever your Levels 1+1, 2, 4, 6 power picks are, you'll ALWAYS have those available no matter what. Set bonuses are a different matter (of course), but there are limits on "how low you can go" with the levels on enhancements before compromising your performance at the upper end (Level 50 + Incarnate content, basically).
Remember ... enhancements continue to "work" (in full) until exemplared/malefactored -3 Levels below the Level of the enhancements themselves. Powers continue to be available until exemplared/malefactored -5 Levels below the level at which the power was picked/chosen.