City of Heroes: Rebirth Forums

City of Heroes: Rebirth => Archetypes => Tanker => Topic started by: wyldhaunt on December 07, 2022, 08:24:54 am

Title: Ice/Stone Tanker (Amberguard/Isskjelv)
Post by: wyldhaunt on December 07, 2022, 08:24:54 am
I think Isskjelv is performing well enough in end-game content to share his build now. A couple of things to start off with: I love Stone Melee on a Tanker. It has plenty of AoE melee control (especially via Fault) and respectable ST dmg and control (especially via Seismic Smash). After learning more about Ice from our devs and experimenting with it, I find plenty of layered mitigation there too. More discussion after the build, which is:

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.7
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build! (https://www.midsreborn.com/builds/download.php?uc=1832&c=784&a=1568&f=HEX&dc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

Isskjelv: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Sorcery
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor Level 1: Stone Fist Level 2: Hoarfrost Level 4: Heavy Mallet Level 6: Mystic Flight Level 8: Boxing Level 10: Wet Ice Level 12: Permafrost Level 14: Taunt Level 16: Icicles Level 18: Glacial Armor Level 20: Fault Level 22: Chilling Embrace Level 24: Tough Level 26: Energy Absorption Level 28: Maneuvers Level 30: Hasten Level 32: Tremor Level 35: Tactics Level 38: Seismic Smash Level 41: Gloom Level 44: Darkest Night Level 47: Spirit Ward Level 49: Rune of Protection Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Brawl Level 1: Sprint Level 2: Rest Level 2: Swift Level 2: Hurdle Level 2: Health Level 2: Stamina Level 1: Disintegrating
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Polar Lights Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 50: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Task Force Commander
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion
------------



Code: [Select]
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So, some Tanker deets:

Add to that the offensive mitigation:

Then add aggro from Taunt, Icicles and Chilling Embrace, and here is a Tanker that can pretty much do it all.

There are a few other items worth noting:

At the end of it all, I'm not yet sure whether Gnawt's Inv/Savage or Isskjelv's Ice/Stone will feel more "powerful." Both are fun to play, which is all the really matters. I do miss Savage Melee's Blood Thirst for spot heals, however I feel like I'm helping more with Stone Melee's Fault and Seismic Smash. Also, it is easier to hold aggro with Ice/Stone, although Inv/Savage does plenty well.
Title: Re: Ice/Stone Tanker (Isskjelv)
Post by: wyldhaunt on December 10, 2022, 03:35:43 pm
Yesterday I found that Anti-Matter in the Keyes iTrial can still make life interesting for Isskjelv, needing a few green inspirations to tank him during the first phase of that. Today I found that MSR Rikti Magi are nothing to handle. I pulled at least 8 during one wing's pull - I did have to occasionally heal with Dull Pain, but needed nothing more often.
Title: Re: Ice/Stone Tanker (Isskjelv)
Post by: Redlynne on December 10, 2022, 10:57:00 pm
Quote from: wyldhaunt on December 10, 2022, 03:35:43 pm
Today I found that MSR Rikti Magi are nothing to handle. I pulled at least 8 during one wing's pull - I did have to occasionally heal with Dull Pain, but needed nothing more often.

I was noticing that myself during the MSR. I remember the Rikti Magus as being well ... more dangerous, back on live.
My experience with them back on Virtue was that the Rikti Magus were a serious threat to everyone in the "bowl" because their AoE Mez (Mass Hypnosis) could shut down all the squishies in a huge radius. Also, as Elite Boss level they tended to hit HARD for lots of damage with their Mezmerize/Dominate mind control powers ... which do not have a melee/ranged/aoe factor to them (since they're pure psi) and thus would cut right through positional defenses as if they aren't even there (because, for mind control, they aren't!).

It's probably the huge quantity of Barrier+Clarion going on during MSRs that mitigates a lot of that danger factor.
Either that or they got "re-tuned" here on Rebirth (unlikely, but I don't have access to the codebase to confirm).
The lack of detoggle upon mez also probably has something to do with the difference here on Rebirth.
Title: Re: Ice/Stone Tanker (Isskjelv)
Post by: wyldhaunt on December 13, 2022, 05:03:51 pm
Rikti Magi have not been changed on Rebirth. We have experienced issues league-wide with Rikti Magi during MSRs in the past (especially early on), until our regular leagues learned to bring plenty of Clarion for the bowl, which is one reason for our strats. However, for the melee which goes out and gathers Rikti from the outlying saucer areas, the protections cast in the bowl don't help so much.

I have heard from another player that our former player who led the effort to formulate our strategies, while playing a kitted out Shield/Axe Tanker with a Ice/Pain 2nd-account nearby for support, could handle up to 20 Magi - this is obviously hearsay as I detail here, but I do know they actually challenged our melee to pull enough Magi to wipe the league, with a reward for the person who could. That eventually did happen.

I am more comparing the performance of this build to my Inv/Savage (Gnawt) build, which does have to be concerned more with Magi; they've mezzed Gnawt and almost taken him out several times. I'm attributing Isskjelv's better performance to the improved S/L/E/N Defense and Fire/Energy Res of Isskjelv's build over Gnawt's, though it is possible that I've simply learned to play better. Either way, when I do MSRs, I'm going to continue to push Isskjelv and see just how many Rikti Magi he can handle, just so I can learn the limits of this build.

Oh, regarding "The lack of detoggle upon mez also probably has something to do with the difference here on Rebirth," Rebirth hasn't changed anything regarding this. Offensive toggles are still detoggled on mez. In issue 13 of CoX's original run, Paragon stopped detoggles of most non-offensive toggles upon mez. Anything causing mez was much more dangerous before then, of course including Rikti Magi. Now, defensive toggles still suppress during mez, but at least they don't detoggle.

Title: Re: Ice/Stone Tanker (Isskjelv)
Post by: Redlynne on December 14, 2022, 09:43:32 am
Quote from: wyldhaunt on December 13, 2022, 05:03:51 pm
However, for the melee which goes out and gathers Rikti from the outlying saucer areas, the protections cast in the bowl don't help so much.

Standard operating procedure on Virtue was to have the Melee Monsters (who all have mez protection) "cruise the rim of the bowl" so as to intercept (and mitigate) the flow of Mesmerists and Magus into the bowl area, keeping their attention (and aggro) away from the center. You probably saw me doing this during the last couple of MSRs on saturday this last weekend. Idea being that clustering clumps of Rikti away from the center protected the squishies in the center from excessive aggro (and mez) while keeping the Melee Monsters "circulating" around the rim of the bowl and "cruisin' for a bruisin'" (so to speak). The strategy "leaked" of course, but that meant that the center didn't need to take the full brunt of Rikti piling into the center all at once. Made things safer for everyone (assuming the Melee Monsters had builds that were up to the task, of course).

Quote from: wyldhaunt on December 13, 2022, 05:03:51 pm
I have heard from another player that our former player who led the effort to formulate our strategies, while playing a kitted out Shield/Axe Tanker with a Ice/Pain 2nd-account nearby for support, could handle up to 20 Magi - this is obviously hearsay as I detail here, but I do know they actually challenged our melee to pull enough Magi to wipe the league, with a reward for the person who could. That eventually did happen.

With Clear Mind stacking from support and the right build, I can imagine that would be possible and work. The challenge though is being able to scoop up that many Rikti Magus, since they don't exactly spawn in clumps of 20. You have to keep moving and keep pulling (and maintain aggro!) in order to gather up that many.

Quote from: wyldhaunt on December 13, 2022, 05:03:51 pm
I am more comparing the performance of this build to my Inv/Savage (Gnawt) build, which does have to be concerned more with Magi; they've mezzed Gnawt and almost taken him out several times. I'm attributing Isskjelv's better performance to the improved S/L/E/N Defense and Fire/Energy Res of Isskjelv's build over Gnawt's, though it is possible that I've simply learned to play better.

Back on Virtue, an SG mate of mine had an Invulnerability build that was great against everything ... except the Lanaruu Storm Elementals (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Lanaruu) out in the Storm Palace of the Shadow Shard. For some reason, his build just wasn't strong enough against Energy damage, which of course the Storm Elementals were doing very regularly, and his protection scheme just wasn't up to the challenge. By contrast, Redlynne (MA/SR Scrapper from Issue 2 on Virtue) had absolutely no trouble with taking them down, because damage types "didn't matter" to SR (so long as you weren't dealing with SR Kryptonite that "negated" the entire protection scheme). It was just more Melee/Ranged/AoE to me, so as long as I held aggro, everyone else was fine (although, as a Scrapper, that limit of aggro capacity was severely limited!).

I suspect that Isskjelv's superior performance relative to Gnawt during MSRs is likely due to the fact that Invulnerability isn't as strong against Energy damage as we'd like to assume (based on the name of the powerset, among other things) ... and the Rikti throw a LOT of energy damage around. Ice Armor is doing a LOT for you in that regard, by making the energy damage attacks MISS you, rather than taking ALL of the hits and needing Invulnerability to resist them down below your regeneration capacity. The danger there is the "death by a thousand cuts" flood through what Invulnerability is supposed to be doing for you in terms of resistance and regeneration.

This is why with my build for Redlynne here on Rebirth (as a Tanker), I reach for Incarnate Softcap Defense (59%+) with my Agility Radial Paragon (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Agility_Radial_Paragon) alpha slotting letting Storm Kick's +10% Defense vs All give me a safety margin against Defense Debuffs (multiplied in effectiveness by capped Defense Debuff Resistance, courtesy of Super Reflexes, of course) and then let a combination of scaling resistances (SR passives, mainly, but also the Reactive Defenses proc slotted into Maneuvers) along with Preventative Medicine proc (in Aid Self) backstop most of my resistance concerns, since that combination "resists all" rather than picking and choosing types of resistances. After that, it's all about piling on as much regeneration and +HP (to boost regeneration throughput) as I can muster, because regeneration "mitigates all damage types" rather than needing to pick and choose (once again). Being able to regen 5% HP every 2.35s like Redlynne (SR/MA Tanker on Rebirth) can means that unless I'm stuck standing in overlapping World of Anguish pink puddles for "too long" when fighting Malaise, it's actually quite difficult to force Redlynne the faceplant. As her HP goes down, her resistances (and absorb) goes up, while her regeneration is just passively working the entire time to keep her upright. The beauty of Super Reflexes is that it "negates" SO MUCH of the incoming damage that regeneration becomes an exceptionally powerful countermeasure for any damage that does leak through your defenses while also making Aid Self (which has a 1s interrupt) a viable option even when in the middle of massed combat (just don't be moving or under DoT when casting Aid Self). I've even been able to deploy Assemble the Team(!) while I've got the aggro of about 8-10 Clockworks clustered up on me at the end of the Synapse TF (they all just MISSED me, so no interrupt for the casting of AtT).

So for Redlynne's Destiny slot, of course I went with Rebirth Radial Epiphany (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Rebirth_Radial_Epiphany) because ... that which cannot kill me ... CANNOT KILL ME ... and that massive regeneration buff can heal a league clustered up in one place, keeping the living ... alive. Hence Redlynne's title (inspired by her performance during MSRs herding Rikti Magus) of The Extraordinary Death-Defying Redlynne ... and given some of the aggro she's soaked up in the past couple of weeks (Marauder and friends SOLO during Lambda because I jumped in too soon, as well as last night Pumpkin Fest after iTrials), I'd say that title is pretty well earned now. Even Anti-Matter's Obliteration Beam can't one shot Redlynne anymore ... although World of Anguish "pink puddles" can outstrip her baseline regeneration (and are auto hit!) so those are one of the many Kryptonite Factors that I can't get too complacent about (there are others).

Quote from: wyldhaunt on December 13, 2022, 05:03:51 pm
Now, defensive toggles still suppress during mez, but at least they don't detoggle.

And thankfully, all of the Leadership Toggles count as being defensive (target allies, not foes) so they don't need to be retoggled on if mezzed.
Title: Re: Ice/Stone Tanker (Isskjelv)
Post by: Kismet on December 15, 2022, 08:30:32 pm
Thanks for the write-up, Wyldhaunt!

I completely agree on Darkest Night being a go-to for Tanker/Brute epic pool picks. Gloom's great damage and Soul Tentacles and Dark Obliteration's awesome proc possibilities mean that there are no 'tax' powers to take in the pool, if someone is looking to add AoE their build. Maybe some day we'll get a buff pass on the other pools... ;)

If you don't mind a suggestion, should you be able to see your way over to Gadgetry (in lieu of Sorcery), Force Barrier would be close to perma with your combination of global recharge and Force Feedback procs. If you add in our typical league-wide +recharge buffs, you'd probably get the rest of the way there. With 5408 HP (from Hoarfrost/Force Barrier combined... when used in that order), I see no reason Isskjelv couldn't Facetank, well... everything!  ;D

See you in game!  :D
Title: Re: Ice/Stone Tanker (Isskjelv)
Post by: wyldhaunt on December 17, 2022, 02:43:25 pm
Quote from: Kismet on December 15, 2022, 08:30:32 pm
If you don't mind a suggestion, should you be able to see your way over to Gadgetry (in lieu of Sorcery), Force Barrier would be close to perma with your combination of global recharge and Force Feedback procs. If you add in our typical league-wide +recharge buffs, you'd probably get the rest of the way there. With 5408 HP (from Hoarfrost/Force Barrier combined... when used in that order), I see no reason Isskjelv couldn't Facetank, well... everything!  ;D
Thank you, Kismet!

I never mind suggestions, especially when relayed in the kind manner you use, and frankly never really looked at Force Barrier, but... wow. Of course, it would mean losing the sometimes on/sometimes off +Res from Rune of Protection, but having a ~1640HP Absorb (2-slotted with Preventive Medicine Heal/Rech & Heal/Rech/End) refreshable more often than every 42s (with the duration of 30s) looks really appealing. Small side benefit: rather than the unused Spirit Ward (which I always forget to cast because I have other things on my mind/action list), I could gain Energy Gauntlet, which would allow me an actual ranged attack chain (with Gloom and Taunt) for the times which can use that. Time to shuffle a couple of powers/slots around in my Mids build, then a respec, then for some experiential testing!

Title: Re: Ice/Stone Tanker (Isskjelv)
Post by: Redlynne on December 17, 2022, 08:54:51 pm
Quote from: wyldhaunt on December 17, 2022, 02:43:25 pm
rather than the unused Spirit Ward (which I always forget to cast because I have other things on my mind/action list)
I actually use Spirit Ward on Redlynne (at Exemplar levels 42+) as a "wombo combo" with Aid Other. If I'm not deep into Scrapperlock (hey, it happens...) and I notice someone else is taking too much damage ... I'll target them so I can cast Spirit Ward followed by Aid Other on them. The absorb from Spirit Ward buys them "breathing room" if they continue to take damage and the Aid Other actually heals them a useful amount to get them out of danger (and hopefully react). In my case, because I've got Field Medic as well, Aid Other has no interrupt(!), so it can also be cast while moving(!), which is nice because Aid Other has such a short range to it.

However, without that combination of absorb+heal to help allies recover, I can easily imagine that Spirit Ward kind of falls by the wayside when it comes to usage.
Still, I have been able to avert a number of "faceplant imminent!" situations during Task Forces and iTrials, so it really depends on how you habituate yourself to using it (even if you're a Tanker).
Title: Re: Ice/Stone Tanker (Amberguard/Isskjelv)
Post by: wyldhaunt on December 16, 2023, 08:48:34 am
Alright, a lot of time has bone by, and Isskjelv is now Amberguard again, and I've updated Amberguard's high-end teaming build to hone in his survivability at the cost of some offense. This build can tank most anything:

This Hero build was built using Mids Reborn 3.4.7
https://github.com/LoadedCamel/MidsReborn

Click this DataLink to open the build! (https://www.midsreborn.com/builds/download.php?uc=1860&c=805&a=1610&f=HEX&dc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

Amberguard iTrials: Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Stone Melee
Power Pool: Gadgetry
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor Level 1: Stone Fist Level 2: Hoarfrost Level 4: Jetpack Level 6: Wet Ice Level 8: Permafrost Level 10: Chilling Embrace Level 12: Icicles Level 14: Taunt Level 16: Energy Gauntlet Level 18: Glacial Armor Level 20: Fault Level 22: Force Barrier Level 24: Hasten Level 26: Energy Absorption Level 28: Boxing Level 30: Tough Level 32: Weave Level 35: Maneuvers Level 38: Seismic Smash Level 41: Tremor Level 44: Gloom Level 47: Tactics Level 49: Darkest Night Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Brawl Level 1: Sprint Level 2: Rest Level 2: Swift Level 2: Hurdle Level 2: Health Level 2: Stamina Level 1: Disintegrating
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon
Level 50: Ion Core Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Polar Lights Core Superior Ally
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
Level 50: Melee Core Embodiment
Level 50: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 50: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Task Force Commander
Level 50: The Atlas Medallion
Level 4: Turbo Boost
------------