SMF - Just Installed!
Quote from: Redlynne on Jan 02, 2025, 10:06 AMQuote from: Joshex on Jan 02, 2025, 01:01 AMI see, so you can't add them, the game isn't built to allow that.Correct.
When you have multiple status effects of the same type, they "layer" on top of each other (in parallel) rather than "chain" together (sequentially).
The boolean condition of whether the status effect "does anything" is determined by the total mag ... the "thickness" of the layers, if you will. This is why 2x stacking is useful in order to generate sufficient mag "depth" to affect $Targets. Mag 2 will only affect Minions, but Mag 2+2 affects Minions, LTs and Bosses, for example.
Each effect runs for its duration independently.
Some powers have stacking limits (limit 1 or limit 4 or limit 8 being the most common), where reapplying the effect overwrites the previous application, discarding any remaining duration of the first application in favor of a "refresh" from the second application. This is often times annotated in the descriptions of powers as being Does Not Stack From Same Caster (or words to that effect).
In other words, you can't think about this problem in terms of simple addition (like you were doing), instead the proper frame is something more akin to TETRIS (kinda sorta, but the analogy is decidedly imperfect).Quote from: Joshex on Jan 02, 2025, 01:01 AMwhat we could do is leave taunt alone, and put in a separate +Attract -speed -rech -fly -jump -range - def power. which really wasn't the goal, but would be more standard.Taunt is the -Range power. It is pretty unique in that respect, for all Tanker and Brute+Scrapper Taunts ... to "force" Foes to reposition themselves closer to the caster of the Taunt. Taunt in primary/secondary powersets will include -Range, while the Presence Pool: Provoke power for taunting does not.
To be honest with you, I think you would probably be better off (conceptually) starting with Ice Armor as a foundational basis/starting point and then modifying Ice Armor: Chilling Embrace such that all of the Slow effects of Ice into being more of a -Speed (fly, jump, run) and -Range debuff. Add +Attract but lose the -Recharge effect. Exchange the -Damage effect for a -Regeneration effect on all affected Foes. The real challenge though would be working out some way to run the Endurance Cost that doesn't "bankrupt" the blue bar too reliably ... one way would be to impose a Max 10 Targets limit on it, along with a limited PBAoE radius.
That gives you a "pull them in so they can't get out" type of PBAoE Aura.
If you want to get EXTRA fancy, could set up the power such that it has "overlapping bands" of effect that add up as Foes get drawn in closer.
20ft radius = 25% effect
16ft radius = 25% effect
12ft radius = 25% effect
8ft radius = 25% effect
You then let all of those effects stack with each other concurrently. So what you wind up with is:
20ft radius: 25% effect
16ft radius: 25+25 = 50% effect
12ft radius: 25+25+25 = 75% effect
8ft radius: 25+25+25+25 = 100% effect
This would then let you do things like setting up each range band as being "equivalent to mag 1" in status effect terms (for purposes of illustration), such that Minions are affected (mag 1+1=2) at 16ft radius ... Lieutenants are affected (mag 1+1+1=3) at 12 ft radius ... and Bosses are only affected (mag 1+1+1+1=4) at 8ft radius. So you get a sort of "layered wedding cake" type of effect behavior out of the power (at the expense of 4x the server computation overhead, which might be a deal breaker, but this is just Blue Sky™ wishful thinking at this point).
Continuing that idea, you can exchange Ice Armor: Icicles for something more akin to a Warshade's Orbiting Death power ... except that instead of doing a (single) PBAoE damage effect like Orbiting Death does, set it up as a PBAoE that does Grant Power to up to Max 5 Targets which causes affected Foes to generate an 8ft PBAoE of damage around themselves for a single damage pulse. So Gravity Armor: Tidal Disruption toggle turns into a power that does more PBAoE damage the more Foes you have around you (up to 5), since they're each generating their own damage aura around themselves while in your "orbit" and close enough to be affected.
Way the power behaves is that the more Foes cluster around you, the more damage they deal to each other as your gravity power "tears them apart" and sends bits of debris swirling around, which become "impactors" under your control that slam into your Foes. Basically, they start "breaking up" under the tidal effects of your gravity power and even rocks and pebbles from the ground turn into "death by a thousand cuts" type missiles that deal harm to your Foes ... such that the more Foes around you, the more debris being generated, the more damage they take from being "trapped" in orbit around you, getting "shredded" by the gravitic tidal forces.
Other ideas that come to mind for a Gravity Melee powerset would be something akin to a Gravity Whip power.
If the Foe is "distant" (more than 20ft) then it rapidly pulls them towards the caster. This is a "move them" rather than a "move you" type of power.
If the Foe is "close" (10-20ft) then it does minor damage and a Knockdown.
If the Foe is "too close" (under 10ft) then it does major damage and a big Knockback (think Force Field: Repulsion Bolt of mag 11+ type knockback).
This then sets up the opportunity for a "pull/push" type of behavior that can "juggle" the positioning of a Foe. From far away, it pulls them in, and from close up it pushes them away.
A really wild alternative for this kind of a Gravity Whip power would be to not make it a single target, but a 30º 40ft Cone attack. Reason why a Cone would be especially good is because Cones can be enhanced for Range (meaning the 40ft base radius can go up!). Additionally, it's also possible to use the "Hop & Pop" move with Cone attacks by melee oriented ATs, such that you jump up vertically so as to "aim" the Cone DOWN below you at your selected $Target. With enough height on the jump for the "Hop & Pop" you can catch multiple Foes clustered around your position on the ground using a Cone that is cast while up in the air during your jump. That way, if you don't want to make a big Knockback against a single Foe with Gravity Whip, you can just jump UP above 10ft from your $Target and get the minor damage+knockdown effect instead on a larger number of Foes that were herded up around your position on the ground.
I learned the "Hop & Pop" move while playing Ice/Ice on a Tanker so as to turn Frost (a 10ft 90º Cone, Max 10 Targets) into something of a "poor man's PBAoE" attack against all the Foes that clustered up around me. Adding Range enhancement to extend that range to ~16ft 90º Cone did wonders for increasing the number of Foes I could hit with Frost when doing the "Hop & Pop" move (no need for Combat Jumping). Was remarkably effective at dealing damage and stacking Slows onto stuff, keeping them "trapped" in close against my Ice/Ice Tanker (where all the damage and debuffing was happening).
Quote from: Joshex on Jan 02, 2025, 01:01 AMI see, so you can't add them, the game isn't built to allow that.Correct.
Quote from: Joshex on Jan 02, 2025, 01:01 AMwhat we could do is leave taunt alone, and put in a separate +Attract -speed -rech -fly -jump -range - def power. which really wasn't the goal, but would be more standard.Taunt is the -Range power. It is pretty unique in that respect, for all Tanker and Brute+Scrapper Taunts ... to "force" Foes to reposition themselves closer to the caster of the Taunt. Taunt in primary/secondary powersets will include -Range, while the Presence Pool: Provoke power for taunting does not.
Quote from: Redlynne on Jan 02, 2025, 12:38 AMQuote from: Joshex on Jan 01, 2025, 11:29 PMthen it could stack both magnitude and durationExcept that's NOT HOW IT WORKS ... as I just finished explaining and demonstrating to you.
Q: If you have a 12s duration and a 15 second duration remaining ... how much duration do you have remaining?
A: 15 seconds remain (the highest value) ... NOT 27 seconds (the combined value).
Until you understand this point, you are going to continue to reach the wrong conclusions with confidence.
Quote from: Joshex on Jan 01, 2025, 11:29 PMthen it could stack both magnitude and durationExcept that's NOT HOW IT WORKS ... as I just finished explaining and demonstrating to you.
Quote from: Redlynne on Jan 01, 2025, 08:52 PMQuote from: Joshex on Jan 01, 2025, 07:33 PMwhat do you think about the concept of Taunt over Time?I think you're approaching the Taunt duration issue from the wrong perspective.
Let me give you two alternatives, with one difference, to illustrate the problem.
PBAoE Aura has an activation time of 4 seconds and invokes Gauntlet Taunt factor for 15s on each activation.
Test run time: 60s
Activations: 15 per minute
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
PBAoE Aura has an activation time of 4 seconds and invokes Gauntlet Taunt factor for 15s on each activation.
Test run time: 60s
Activations: 15 per minute
Cast Taunt ONCE (60s duration) and then run the same test to prove the difference.
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 60s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 56s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 52s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 48s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 44s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 40s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 36s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 32s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 28s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 24s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 20s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 16s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
Do you see the difference in pattern?
If it's just the Aura invoking Gauntlet, the Taunt Duration Remaining will never exceed 15s. It keeps getting refreshed (to 15s) but it never "stacks" in a way that can exceed 15s.
Conversely, casting Taunt (60s) ONCE and then letting the duration run down while Aura continues invoking Gauntlet, the Taunt Duration Remaining will eventually wind down to a minimum of 11-15s (when getting really fine grained and granular about it) as the Aura keeps refreshing the "floor" minimum value. But the only way to make the Taunt Duration Remaining exceed 15s is to use a power with a longer Taunt duration.
Now think of it in terms of 2s intervals and recasting Taunt every 10s (to keep the math simple). The Taunt Duration Remaining will start to look like this:
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 60s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 58s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 56s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 54s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 52s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 60s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 58s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 56s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 54s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 52s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 60s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 58s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 56s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 54s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 52s
Compare that Taunt Duration Remaining "pattern shape" to what a PBAoE Aura using Gauntlet (exclusively) to invoke a Taunt effect is going to look like in the same 2s interval of activations.
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
- Taunt Duration Remaining: 15s
What's important is not the "mag stack" ... aside from using that to determine if the Taunt "takes effect" (just like with other Mez powers). Once the Mez Condition: Taunt = YES in the boolean sense, the next question is how much duration remains on the effect.
Mag cannot be modified by enhancements, but Taunt duration can be increased by enhancements ... but you can't put any enhancement slots into Gauntlet.
Hope that helps explain the "shape" of the problem I've been trying to highlight for you.
Quote from: Joshex on Jan 01, 2025, 07:33 PMwhat do you think about the concept of Taunt over Time?I think you're approaching the Taunt duration issue from the wrong perspective.
