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[basing this off of [Taunt] doing no damage]

#41

General Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Idea: Gravity Armor & Grav...

Last post by Joshex - Jan 01, 2025, 07:33 PM

However, again this is basing this off of [Taunt] doing no damage, which means that Taunt powers require the player to attack a target with other powers for the Taunt magnitude it applies to count.

You are correct that the Tanker Taunt powers deal no damage natively.
However, in the absence of other attacks having dealt damage, the Taunt power still winds up being relatively overwhelming in terms of Threat Priority.

As cited in the article on Threat that I linked to, it's perfectly possible for values of each parameter to have a floor (such as 1 for multiplication purposes) ... in which case, attacks which deal no damage still accrue some non-zero amount of Threat.

Also, the way that I'm reading the Threat article ... the Taunt duration remaining factor (which decays over time) would seem (to me, anyway) to rely on whatever Taunt has been applied to the $Target by you, including through use of other powers, not just exclusively the Taunt duration applied by the power being cast.

So if you've taunted for a 62s duration and then follow up 2s later with a damaging attack, the duration remaining multiplier will be based on 60s from the Taunt, rather than on 15s from Gauntlet. Do you see where I'm going with that? This means that the effects of a(n actual) Taunt "linger" longer and are therefore stronger at gaining/holding aggro than mere "punchvoke" via Gauntlet. In other words, Tanker Taunts are somewhat literal Threat Multipliers when it comes to gaining and holding aggro.

This is why I say that dropping a "proper" Tanker Taunt type power from a Tanker secondary completely would both break precedent AND be a mistake in terms of aggro management potential.

This does sound like a conundrum, if only for taunt duration. 60 seconds is of course better than 15 seconds. When I think about this specific power though, we need to consider that it will be a PBAoE aura which lasts for upwards of 120 seconds, casting strong speed debuffs, and "Taunt over Time" every time the hitroll tick comes up it will apply a new 15 second taunt if the power hits. theoretically that would give it a maximum taunt duration of [the aura duration] + 15 seconds, instead of 60 seconds.

now true, there's a chance it can fail to hit targets on every new tick, which would result in lost threat and agro if it continues to fail to hit for 4 ticks. But given that not many enemies have Attract proctection, they'd be unable to move away anyways, which would expose them to continuous ticks of hitrolls which could apply another mag 4 taunt for 15 seconds, at any point until the power drops.

The key here is it attempts to apply Taunt mag 4 (15 seconds duration) every 3 seconds, this can Stack, causing upto 4 or 5 times the base magnitude Mag 16-20, the last of which will then drop from the enemy potentially 15 seconds after the power duration has ended.

so if the aura lasts for 120 seconds, you essentially are potentially able to hold agro for 135 seconds with the one power cast. further more anything that touches it during it's duration will hitroll for mag 4 taunt (15 seconds) ever 3 seconds for as long as it's touching.


At least this is the hypothetical idea, It's completely untested, and you would know better. what do you think about the concept of Taunt over Time?

[basing this off of [Taunt] doing no damage]

#42

General Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Idea: Gravity Armor & Grav...

Last post by Redlynne - Jan 01, 2025, 02:14 PM

However, again this is basing this off of [Taunt] doing no damage, which means that Taunt powers require the player to attack a target with other powers for the Taunt magnitude it applies to count.

You are correct that the Tanker Taunt powers deal no damage natively.
However, in the absence of other attacks having dealt damage, the Taunt power still winds up being relatively overwhelming in terms of Threat Priority.

As cited in the article on Threat that I linked to, it's perfectly possible for values of each parameter to have a floor (such as 1 for multiplication purposes) ... in which case, attacks which deal no damage still accrue some non-zero amount of Threat.

Also, the way that I'm reading the Threat article ... the Taunt duration remaining factor (which decays over time) would seem (to me, anyway) to rely on whatever Taunt has been applied to the $Target by you, including through use of other powers, not just exclusively the Taunt duration applied by the power being cast.

So if you've taunted for a 62s duration and then follow up 2s later with a damaging attack, the duration remaining multiplier will be based on 60s from the Taunt, rather than on 15s from Gauntlet. Do you see where I'm going with that? This means that the effects of a(n actual) Taunt "linger" longer and are therefore stronger at gaining/holding aggro than mere "punchvoke" via Gauntlet. In other words, Tanker Taunts are somewhat literal Threat Multipliers when it comes to gaining and holding aggro.

This is why I say that dropping a "proper" Tanker Taunt type power from a Tanker secondary completely would both break precedent AND be a mistake in terms of aggro management potential.

[the other attract in the Gravity Melee set however could be an issue as you described]

#43

General Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Idea: Gravity Armor & Grav...

Last post by Joshex - Jan 01, 2025, 01:59 PM

A Tank Without Taunt is going to be a Failure as a Tank. Here's why (including link to the wiki page):Quote Calculating ThreatWhile the complete formula isn't known, nor do players know most of the minimums or maximums, Castle posted the following in a thread on the Official Forums:Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)Definitions of terms used, and their known values:Damage    This is the final damage a power will cause, not the base damage of a power.Debuff Mod    This is a value created by the Devs to represent the fact that Mobs don't like being debuffed. Values range between 1 and 2, but on most powers, the value is a 2. This means that with two attacks that cause the same damage, but one has a debuff and the other doesn't, the one with the debuff will generate up to twice as much threat.AT Mod    This is the value assigned to each AT, described in the table below.AI Mod    This is a value that is unique to each Mob type. We do not know many value for this variable, but we know that they, in theory, could have a very large range of values.Range Mod    In general, attacks in melee have a higher modifier. However, we know very few specifics about this value.TauntDurationRemaining    Pretty self-explanatory. This is the remaining duration of any Taunt or Taunt-like effects the character has on the enemy.Many of these values have a floor. However, it is unsure what the floor is for each value. It is likely set to 1 for a minimum possible Threat rating from this formula of 1, but that is just a guess.Tanker Secondaries ALL have a Taunt type power that does 3 things (in PvE at least).

• • Mag 4 Taunt for 41s
  • -100% Range debuff for 20s
• Range: 70ft, Endurance cost: 0

[/list]
That high magnitude and duration are what allow Tankers to "pull aggro" from others.

The high magnitude is required to affect Bosses. Stack the power to affect Elite Bosses and up.
The Range debuff is what forces Foes to move towards the Tanker ... and if they can't (Ditch Strategy against the Avatar of Hamidon, Hover Taunting against Maelstrom, Corner Pulling, etc.), then the Foe AI can be "foiled" by the fact that they can ONLY attack a Tanker who is "out of range/reach" which then prevents them from attacking.


And now I want to rebuild my Ice Tanker on Rebirth ... thanks a lot.

well, I hear what you're saying, I had proposed that the Attract power on Gravity Aura would do Significant Damage and that it would be DoT, so you'd also get a taunt over time from gauntlet which would build-up to rather significant values.

the other attract in the Gravity Melee set however could be an issue as you described, I think I said it would apply debuffs -speed -rech -def -fly -jump, so that should up the agro, but perhaps it would need some damage as well to avoid a 0 multiplier, Minor DoT maybe. but in my initial idea; I thought the player could slot a chance for damage into it(like Perfect Zinger chance for Psi damage, this could cause Taunt to work without other powers as well), or rely on dealing damage with other powers to cause the threat calculation to work.

it is still my understanding that the Taunt power does no damage, so that should be a 0 modifier as well (without other attacks dealing damage), that could mean slotting a perfect zinger chance for psi damage in taunt could keep EBs from running all over the map when hit with taunt.

I could see these gravity based attracts having a range debuff, especially black hole which could slap on a range - 100%
blackhole is slated to deal Attract + Superior DOT Smashing/ Negative, debuff speed, rech, def, fly, run, and range, +gauntlet's taunt (Mag 4 Taunt for 14.96s) stacked every tick(roughly 3 seconds from what I've been told) 14.96/3 = 4.97666...7, so it'd build up to a taunt of 4*4=16 at default and with a slight taunt enhancement it'll add 20 taunt.. the power is slated to be limited in duration, like Burn, so like 120 seconds?

so it's calculation would look like (100 + (8.35*13)+(8.35*13))= 116.7 initial damage (317.1 cumulative damage), with a debuff of 2 stacking over time, and a powerful -range modifier, then (4 taunt(*14 seconds (56) *1000) initally this would be 116.7*2*AT Mod *AI Mod * 100 (range modifier) *(14*1000) = ALOT of agro.

now these are not final numbers, these are just me pulling values from other powers and modifying them to superior damage, leaving the same amount of ticks as burn, with an initial damage of superior.



However, again this is basing this off of [Taunt] doing no damage, which means that Taunt powers require the player to attack a target with other powers for the Taunt magnitude it applies to count. this was the same idea with Gravity Well in the melee set idea, dealing no damage only debuffs +attract, -speed, +rech, -def, -fly, -jump, -range, it would require the player to use other attacks to make the agro calc work in their favor, they can't just turn this on and expect everything to attack them. instead, it will however pull everything to them via attract, and drag enemies with them should they move while the power is active. but if another player dealing damage came close; the enemies would prioritize that target if the Gravity Well caster did not attack the enemies.

I mean please do correct me if I'm wrong, and please do modify my idea and propose a fix.

[Purple Patch]

#44

Tanker / Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Ma...

Last post by Redlynne - Jan 01, 2025, 01:58 PM

So then, what happens if we shift the goalposts and presume that War Walkers compute as being +3 vs 50(+3) Incarnates for the purposes of the Purple Patch adjustments?

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.33 = 1410.066 Energy damage per tick

44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 29.0875% Energy Resistance
1410.066 * (1-0.290875) = 999.91305225 Energy damage per tick

Aha.
There's my 1000 Energy damage per Tick computational result!

War Walkers compute as if they were +3 Levels above a 50(+3) Incarnate for the purposes of Purple Patch scaling of attacks and protections ... NOT as +2.



So if my build has only 3160.15 Max Health and I'm getting a 295.92 Absorb every 0.5s from Practiced Brawler ... and I'm only able to receive 2 Regeneration ticks of healing for 158 Health each, then the maximum damage that my build can withstand during the 4s of Lethal Force Authorized DoT duration is:

3160.15 + 295.92*4 + 158*2 = 4659.83 Damage max

Taking into account the fact that Lethal Force Authorized is dealing a "worst case scenario" of 4x 1000 Energy damage

Looks like I've underestimated Lethal Force Authorized yet again.
I suspect that it's not 4 ticks of damage over 4 seconds, it's actually 5 ticks over 4 seconds.

• 0s: Initial DoT tick
• 1s: DoT tick
• 2s: DoT tick
• 3s: DoT tick
• 4s: DoT tick (end)

If that's the case, then my build seen above is falling EVER SO SLIGHTLY SHORT of the mark on being able to survive a hit from Lethal Force Authorized.

Also note that AT Max Health * 0.3 * 1.33 * 5 = 199.5% of AT Max Health over 4 seconds vs Level 50(+3) Incarnates

In other words, Lethal Force Authorized is basically calibrated to deliver 2x AT Max Health in Energy damage to anyone hit by it ... which limits the possible paths to survival down to a combination of Energy Resistance, Regeneration, Healing and/or Absorb. Gets harder when your own Max Health is lower than your AT Max Health limit, forcing an increasing demand on Energy Resistance, Regeneration, Healing and/or Absorb in order to compensate for the shortfall.

3160.15 + 295.92*5 + 158*2 = 4955.75 Max Damage intake to faceplant (in build above)

Lethal Force Authorized
Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.33 = 1410.066 Energy damage per tick

44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 29.0875% Energy Resistance (normalized)
1410.066 * (1-0.290875) = 999.91305225 Energy damage per tick

999.91305225 * 5 = 4999.56526125 Energy damage taken from Lethal Force Authorized

4955.75 - 4999.56526125 = -43.81526125 Health shortfall to surviving Lethal Force Authorized without needing to resort to use of Inspirations

Call it -44 Health short of the goal for this build.
By focusing so heavily on +Regeneration (for higher HP/sec) over +Max Health, a vulnerability has been exposed when it comes to surviving direct hits from Lethal Force Authorized.

This particular weakness can be overcome by use of Inspirations (+Resist before being hit, +Heal while damage is being taken but before faceplanting).

- OR -

I could make a new build that puts more emphasis on +Max Health and Energy Resistance at the expense of some +Regeneration. Right now, my total +Regeneration is in the range of +668.85% (which is A LOT) and yields 1/20th of (my) Max Health every ~1.56s. I could afford to let that total stack of +Regeneration "fall" to as low as +500% (combined) and still be getting 1 Regeneration tick every 2 seconds, an important breakpoint for dealing with Lethal Force Authorized. However, for a variety of reasons ArcanaTime being one of them), letting +Regeneration fall below +506.07% is to be avoided (since that yields a Regeneration tick every 1.98s). Preferentially, +Regeneration should not fall below +549.35%, since that yields a Regeneration tick every 1.848s ... which is "fast enough" to get 2 ticks within a 4 second window.

Incidentally, achieving 3 Regeneration ticks within a 4 second window of time would require +800% Regeneration (total, from all bonuses), which isn't a realistic goal within the context of the rest of the build that I'm working with.



Another alternative would be to modify the build such that I can add just +1.5% more Energy Resistance into the mix while keeping all other build parameters the same.

(44.75% + 1.5%) = 46.25% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 30.0625% Energy Resistance
1410.066 * (1-0.300625) = 986.16490875 Energy damage per tick

986.16490875 * 5 = 4930.82454375 Energy damage taken from Lethal Force Authorized

4955.75 - 4930.82454375 = +24.92545625 Health margin to surviving Lethal Force Authorized without needing to resort to use of Inspirations



So the moral of the story is, for any further rebuild iteration on the above build, I'm going to need:

• More +Max Health (than 3160.15)
• More Energy Resistance (than 44.75% minimum)
• Less +Regeneration (up to 668.85-549.35 = 119.5% reduction is acceptable)

The more I can "push" the build in those directions, the more "margin" I'll have to be able to survive being hit by Lethal Force Authorized without needing to resort to use of Inspirations. As matters stand, my build is "on the wrong side of the cusp" by a mere 2.34% of Tanker AT Base Health ... so with a few build adjustments, this challenge CAN be overcome.



I've already got an idea for how such a goal can be achieved, but it involves "reprogramming" the enhancement slots for multiple powers, so there's a bit of a TETRIS factor involved that I'll need to investigate more thoroughly before committing to another update and respec.

[Calculating Threat]

#45

General Suggestions and Feedback / Re: Idea: Gravity Armor & Grav...

Last post by Redlynne - Jan 01, 2025, 08:53 AM

So, the idea originated when I thought about a tank that instead of having a Taunt power, had a PBAoE (point blank Area of Effect) attract power, leaving taunting to the power of inherent Gauntlet, essentially anything hit by the attract power would be taunted over time.

A Tank Without Taunt is going to be a Failure as a Tank.
Here's why (including link to the wiki page):

Calculating Threat

While the complete formula isn't known, nor do players know most of the minimums or maximums, Castle posted the following in a thread on the Official Forums:

Threat = Damage * Debuff Mod * AT Mod * AI Mod * Range Mod * (TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000)

Definitions of terms used, and their known values:

Damage
    This is the final damage a power will cause, not the base damage of a power.
Debuff Mod
    This is a value created by the Devs to represent the fact that Mobs don't like being debuffed. Values range between 1 and 2, but on most powers, the value is a 2. This means that with two attacks that cause the same damage, but one has a debuff and the other doesn't, the one with the debuff will generate up to twice as much threat.
AT Mod
    This is the value assigned to each AT, described in the table below.
AI Mod
    This is a value that is unique to each Mob type. We do not know many value for this variable, but we know that they, in theory, could have a very large range of values.
Range Mod
    In general, attacks in melee have a higher modifier. However, we know very few specifics about this value.
TauntDurationRemaining
    Pretty self-explanatory. This is the remaining duration of any Taunt or Taunt-like effects the character has on the enemy.

Many of these values have a floor. However, it is unsure what the floor is for each value. It is likely set to 1 for a minimum possible Threat rating from this formula of 1, but that is just a guess.

Tanker Secondaries ALL have a Taunt type power that does 3 things (in PvE at least).

• Mag 4 Taunt for 41s
• -100% Range debuff for 20s

[li]Range: 70ft, Endurance cost: 0[/li][/list]
[/list]
That high magnitude and duration are what allow Tankers to "pull aggro" from others.

The high magnitude is required to affect Bosses. Stack the power to affect Elite Bosses and up.
The Range debuff is what forces Foes to move towards the Tanker ... and if they can't (Ditch Strategy against the Avatar of Hamidon, Hover Taunting against Maelstrom, Corner Pulling, etc.), then the Foe AI can be "foiled" by the fact that they can ONLY attack a Tanker who is "out of range/reach" which then prevents them from attacking.



Starting from a premise of weakened/no Taunt power is what relegated Willpower to "also ran" status for many years, due to the fact that Rise to the Challenge was designed to have a lower Mag (3 instead of 4, so needed to be 2x stacked to work against Bosses) and had a 1.25s duration on a 1.0s activation ... meaning you needed +60% Taunt enhancement (minimum) to extend the duration to 2.0s in order to double stack the Taunt Aura effect of Rise to the Challenge enough to have an effect on Bosses.

It was POSSIBLE to compensate for this drawback, but doing so required 2 enhancement slots be dedicated to the purpose of bringing Rise to the Challenge "up to par" for a Tanker PBAoE Taunt Aura.



Now you're suggesting repeating that mistake with a Gravity type armor+melee powerset, on the assumption that the Threat generated by Attract+Punchvoke will be "enough" to compensate.

I can tell you, right now, that it won't ... especially because you're saying the Attract power(s) should be non-damaging. Look at the Threat formula cited above. Zero damage adds ZERO Threat, because damage is a multiplier factor.

Additionally, if all you're doing is adding Gauntlet (Mag 4 Taunt for 14.96s) to DAMAGING ATTACKS (another strike against non-damaging powers, since they won't invoke Gauntlet), you're looking at a short Taunt duration (~15s) as a side effect of using damaging powers. In a lot of circumstances, that's sufficient ... but in Main Tank applications, it can be woefully inadequate.

For example:
My SR/MA/MP Tanker build for Redlynne uses a common Taunt: 50+5 IO in Warrior's Challenge (the Martial Arts "taunt" power). This gives the power a 41*(1+0.424*1.25)=62.73s duration for my Taunt power. This is 4x the duration of Taunt duration from Gauntlet (punchvoke). Therefore, a One Slot Wonder™ Taunt power will EASILY override the "attention/aggro-grabbing" power of Gauntlet alone ... because of how Threat is calculated (see above).

TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000 from Gauntlet = 14,960
TauntDurationRemaining * 1,000 from Taunt enhanced with 1x 50+5 common IO = 62,730

There's a REASON why Tankers who assume they can "just get by" on Gauntlet alone CANNOT hold aggro away from a Tanker with an (actual) Taunt power.
I know, I've DONE IT ... on an 8-man Tanker Tuesday on Virtue server running an ITF.

I was playing an Ice/Ice Tanker, told all 7 of the other Tankers that my build "inhaled aggro like a wind tunnel" and that they wouldn't be able to pull aggro off me. There was, of course, some good natured ribbing before the ITF started ("yeah right" and "we'll see" and so on).

Once we got into the ITF, it quickly became apparent that ALL THE AGGRO BELONGED TO ME ... because of the damage aura (Icicles) and slow aura (Chilling Embrace) stacking on everything around me. But then, I also had the actual Taunt power ... and apparently, none of them did (so they were built more like Scrankers, really).

Occasionally, one of them (the Team Lead) would try to break away from the pile surrounding me to get aggro from the next group. I'd see it, target one of the Foes they were trying to pull the aggro of, cast taunt ... and that fresh pile would just run right past them to make a beeline for joining the mosh pit around my Ice/Ice Tanker.

NO ONE on that ITF run was able to pull aggro away from me for more than a few seconds.
Even the Team Lead was crying that he couldn't get ANY aggro ... on an 8-man Tanker Tuesday run through ITF. For the entire run, my Ice/Ice Tanker was the MAIN ATTRACTION ... and everyone else were just my "groupies" for dishing out DPS, making them Scrankers.

When we got done, basically none of the other Tankers could believe what had just happened.
8 Tankers ... but only 1 "real" aggro magnet ... who wasn't any of them.

And because Ice/Ice Tankers are best played with a Scrapperlock/Brute type mentality (gotta keep "feeding the beast" of Energy Absorption in order to keep Defenses up, much like with Rage type mechanics), I was just a steamroller of destruction, while everyone else was just along for the ride (because they couldn't get any aggro away from me). So everything turned into HERD & (Cold) BURN for the entire run, and the most $Target Rich Environment™ was to be found around my Ice/Ice Tanker, who was more of a "flypaper build" (pull them in, get them stuck, they can't get away).



This is why I say that I know what you're reaching for ... but it won't work out the way that you're thinking it might (or even ought to).

The reason why Ice Armor is such a strong aggro magnet is because it has a debuff (Chilling Embrace) AND and damage (Icicles) aura power that are meant to be used concurrently, which then magnify the amount of Threat generated by the Tanker very efficiently, while also making retreat/escape from the effects of those auras much more difficult (making them more "sticky").

Non-damaging powers that Attract won't be able to compete with that combination, let alone rival it.



And now I want to rebuild my Ice Tanker on Rebirth ... thanks a lot.

#46

General Suggestions and Feedback / Idea: Gravity Armor & Gravity ...

Last post by Joshex - Jan 01, 2025, 01:08 AM

this idea is far from finalized most of this first post will be talking about the potential of the sets.

So, the idea originated when I thought about a tank that instead of having a Taunt power, had a PBAoE (point blank Area of Effect) attract power, leaving taunting to the power of inherent Gauntlet, essentially anything hit by the attract power would be taunted over time. I'm thinking both Gravity Aura and Gravity Melee could have such a power, calling one Black Hole and another Gravity Well. I had an idea that One of these should be non-damaging akin to Taunt, probably in the Gravity Melee set, where the variant in Gravity Aura/Armor would be damaging not just using attract, but also applying powerful Smashing(Crushing) and Negative damage over time.

the question here is how this should be applied, Perhaps this should be a Click-type PBAoE power, activated for some given amount of time, kinda like Fire armor's Burn, but in Smashing Negative and with Attract. I'm thinking it should have 2 fields, one Wide AoE ring which is Attract only, and a central ball that when enemies touch it deals Superior DoT Smashing Negative. This way it's not completely unfair in PVP where players who have attract resistance or protection can get out of the damaging area.

Gravity Aura or Gravity Armor, would have some very powerful KB/KD/KU, Attract, Repel, Hold, Immobilize and TP Protection/Resistance.

I'm not sure if it would have much Mez protection at all. perhaps paired with a power that grants a PBAoE debuff, a "Wormhole" which redirects effects to enemies and saps end, speed and recharge, granting the Gravity aura character +recovery, +speed, +recharge and some minor amount of Mez Protection or Resistance.

the sets are all about slowing down and pulling your enemies in and causing -fly and -jump and boosting your own -recharge to make your attacks faster.

The set does not provide much Resistance, it'd be mostly about Defense, though we might be able to think up 1 or 2 limited Resistance powers, limited in that they probably don't provide much res to (All), or provide basic res to energies+fire and Smashing Lethal.



White hole: so theoretically some have hypothesized that while a blackhole intakes all matter and nothing can escape, a white hole is the otherside of the black hole, like a wormhole connects them and the white hole spits out everything, light, matter and even time. so bringing this into a gravity set, this would be a self buff +Regen, +Recovery, +Speed, -Recharge. I thought of using Whitehole as a last power which would grant Self Rez Untouchable 30 seconds, then it could be a passive boost at other times just for owning the power.


another power I thought of which would likely be in the Aura set, would be "Increase Gravity", it's not really an attack as it does no damage, but it works much like mudpots in stone armor adding -speed to the enemy and yourself as a PBAoE aura, but also adding a -fly -jump and -def to all, including self. it sounds counter productive, but given that most of your armor and attacks boost your speed and recharge rate, you can take it, but this is a way to slow down enemies even further.


some other ideas to incorporate

Orbit: a defense power, that attempts to cause attacks to miss you, where orbit could not just apply +Def (All but Psionic). but causes attacks that miss you to circle you and hit the first enemy they come in contact with delaing some portion of their original damage.

Revolution: another defense power, though this time a simple +Def (Smashing, Lethal, Energies)
I thought of calling Revolution "EM Field" like the earth has an EM field arround it which deflects energies, fire and smashing lethal to some extent. perhaps this should be a Def&Res power not sure.

Event Horizon: this would grant some self-buff and an enemy debuff based on the number of enemies nearby, probably self +Recovery, +Regeneration, foe: -recovery -regeneration.


Gravity melee probably should have a "Meteor Strike" power, which TP AoE's the player down onto a given point dealing superior Smashing damage +Knockback initially then leaving a field which deals moderate Fire DoT for some amount of time.

other elements I came up with are:
chain powers:
for the melee set essentailly Magnetic Chain, or Magnetic Gearing, which would be a Melee-Chain Minor Damage Negative debuff power with Foe: -Speed, -Def, -Rech, -Recovery, self: +speed +rech +def +recovery which could hit upto 5 targets. probably the second to last power in the set.

and maybe an Radiation Wave attack, Melee Chain dealing High Damage Negative to upto 5 targets.

I don't really have enough Ideas to build a whole aura/armor set. and right now it's just a basic idea and needs more discussion.

[Lethal Force Authorized]

#47

Tanker / Re: {RI 6} Super Reflexes / Ma...

Last post by Redlynne - Dec 28, 2024, 08:46 PM

Surviving a War Walker's Lethal Force Authorized as a Main Tank theory crafting:

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2

My understanding is that War Walkers calculate as Level 55 Foes, making them +2 vs Incarnate (+3). Due to Purple Patch modifiers, this increases the amount of damage delivered per DoT tick by +22%.
1060.2 * 1.22 = 1293.444 Energy damage per tick, 4x over 4s

@ 44.75% (minimum) Energy Resistance: 1293.444 * (1-0.4475) = 714.62781 Energy damage taken per tick, 4x over 4s

Practiced Brawler @ 295.92 Absorb every 0.5s: 714.62781 - 295.92 = 418.70781 Energy damage taken to Health per tick, 4x over 4s

418.70781 * 4 = 1674.83124 Energy damage taken to Health in total

During those 4 seconds, because Regeneration ticks are happening every ~1.56s, a minimum of 2 Regeneration ticks ought to occur while Lethal Force Authorized is continuing to deal damage (possibly 3 Regeneration ticks, depending on timing, but for the purposes of this analysis, I'm assuming a "worst case scenario" of only 2 Regeneration ticks).

1674.83124 - (158.00716*2) = 1358.81692 Energy damage taken to Health (net, after Absorb and Regeneration)

The build has 3160.1432 Max Health.
3160.1432 - 1358.81692 = +1801.32628 margin of Health

So even if I'm wrong and there's 5 ticks of Energy damage instead of only 4 (initial + 4), there's still a comfortable margin of safety.

(418.70781 * 5) - (158.00716*2) = 1777.52473 Energy damage taken to Health (net, after Absorb and Regeneration)

So absolute worst case scenario, 3160.1432 - 1777.52473 = +1382.61847 margin of Health ... which should be enough to face tank Lethal Force Authorized without requiring additional support measures (powers, buffs, inspirations, etc.), even when taking additional damage from extra Foes in the vicinity.

Something is wrong with my computations in the above, and I'm trying to figure out what it might be.

Today when I was main tanking the Underground Trial, before calling everyone to join in on the beatdown I got hit by Lethal Force Authorized ... and twice (on the 2nd and 3rd Warwalkers, while pulling them to their respective locations) I was taking 1000 Energy damage per tick from Lethal Force Authorized ... on a build with 3160.15 Max Health and a Practiced Brawler Absorb of 295.92 every 0.5s.

The first time, I was running "unbuffed" to test my build strategy ... and got taken to zero Health and faceplanted.

The second time, I saw the Lethal Force Authorized notification come up and had Destiny: T4 Rebirth Radial add enough +Regeneration to survive without faceplanting.

But both times, I was taking 1000 Energy damage ticks ... and I'm not quite sure why.
The reason why I'm not sure why I was taking 1000 Energy damage DoT ticks is because my new build has 44.75% Energy Resistance (minimum, can go up with scaling resistances from Reactive Defenses and the Super Reflexes passives stacking). However, the way that Lethal Force Authorized "works" is that it resolves the attack first, so all the damage to deal gets "programmed" in advance from the start, rather than "checking" resistances against each damage tick being dealt. That means that whatever your resistances are at the START of the attack are what matter, not what your resistances wind up being at the END. Resistances that go up as the DoT ticks land DO NOT MATTER, since the damage to be dealt has all been determined in advance of the DoT ticks actually landing (if that makes any sense).

So if I was taking 1000 Energy damage per DoT tick @ 44.75% Energy resistance from Lethal Force Authorized:

1000 / (1-0.4475) ≈ 1810 Energy damage "raw" per tick prior to computing Resistances
1810 / 3534 Tanker Max Health = 51.21675156% "raw" damage per DoT tick

Now supposedly ... the Energy damage per DoT tick from Lethal Force Authorized is supposed to be 30% of Max Health, but that's before factoring in the Purple Patch.

51.21675156 / 30 = 1.70722505x

Purple Patch +6 = 1.66x
Purple Patch +7 = 1.77x

So a 1.707x result isn't matching all that well against expectations, since it basically means the War Walkers would basically be Level +6.5 relative to my 50(+3) ... which doesn't make sense.



However ... all of the above is operating on a supposition that the Purple Patch factor only applies to the War Walker's damage output ... and has no relevance for my protection, which probably isn't true. This could well explain why my calculations didn't work out as planned in practice.

I was expecting to take ~715 Energy damage per DoT tick.
Instead, I was taking 1000 Energy damage per DoT tick ... which then begs the question of WHY.



Looking at the Purple Patch table, if we assume that War Walkers are +2 relative to a 50(+3) Incarnate, and apply the Above multipliers to the War Walker and the Below multipliers to a $Target's protection (in this case, Energy Resistance) and recompute:

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.22 = 1293.444 Energy damage per tick

44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.8 Purple Patch multiplier = 35.8% Energy Resistance
1293.444 * (1-0.358) = 830.391048 Energy damage per tick

This is less than 1000 Energy damage per tick, so the supposition that War Walkers compute as being +2 vs 50(+3) Incarnates is probably incorrect.



So then, what happens if we shift the goalposts and presume that War Walkers compute as being +3 vs 50(+3) Incarnates for the purposes of the Purple Patch adjustments?

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.33 = 1410.066 Energy damage per tick

44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 29.0875% Energy Resistance
1410.066 * (1-0.290875) = 999.91305225 Energy damage per tick

Aha.
There's my 1000 Energy damage per Tick computational result!

War Walkers compute as if they were +3 Levels above a 50(+3) Incarnate for the purposes of Purple Patch scaling of attacks and protections ... NOT as +2.



So if my build has only 3160.15 Max Health and I'm getting a 295.92 Absorb every 0.5s from Practiced Brawler ... and I'm only able to receive 2 Regeneration ticks of healing for 158 Health each, then the maximum damage that my build can withstand during the 4s of Lethal Force Authorized DoT duration is:

3160.15 + 295.92*4 + 158*2 = 4659.83 Damage max

Taking into account the fact that Lethal Force Authorized is dealing a "worst case scenario" of 4x 1000 Energy damage ... that's not a lot of margin to spare for "extra" damage coming from the adds congregating around the War Walkers, because there's almost a dozen of them, and even @ 5% chance to hit 60+% Defense (melee/ranged/aoe) there's still going to be "some" damage leaking through at the most inopportune of times.

In other words, that "margin" of 659.83 Health doesn't look adequate for the task when trying to pull a War Walker into position (which makes melee attacks for +Resistance procs from Tanker ATOs not relevant).



So what happens if I use a +10% Resistance Inspiration? How does that change the results during the vulnerable part of the pull duration?

Tanker AT Max Health = 3534
3534 * 0.3 = 1060.2
1060.2 * 1.33 = 1410.066 Energy damage per tick

10+44.75% Energy Resistance * 0.65 Purple Patch multiplier = 35.5875% Energy Resistance
1410.066 * (1-0.355875) = 908.25876225 Energy damage per tick

4659.83 - 908.25*4 = 1026.83 Health margin (out of 3160.15 Max Health)

In other words, a +10% Resistance Inspiration is worth an extra +367 Health margin against a Lethal Force Authorized survival check ... and obviously, more Energy Resistance is better for this particular application.



Looks like I need to go back to bringing 4-5 Resistance Inspirations with me anytime I want to main tank on Underground Trial runs.

On my previous build with Redlynne, I was needing to use +20-30% from Resistance Inspirations (typically using 2 at a time) in order to survive Lethal Force Authorized, which was part of why I feared it so much, since Gadgetry: Force Barrier for +Absorb wasn't enough on its own, I still needed higher Energy Resistances than the 24.5% I was working with back then.

This means that the new build is "stronger" in this regard, so it needs less "temporary augmentation" from Inspirations to achieve the necessary safety margin, and the new build is more "automated" with fewer Click powers needed to make survival against Lethal Force Authorized "work" properly ... so the new build is definitely much safer in that respect.



Hmmmm.
Destiny: Rebirth Radial Epiphany (for a Tanker) heals 856.7176 Health immediately, and applies:
+1000% Regeneration for 10s
+200% Regeneration for 30s
+200% Regeneration for 60s
+200% Regeneration for 120s
All of which stack ... so +1600%, then +600%, then +400%, then +200% Regeneration for the duration.

If I "saved" my Rebirth click for use AFTER the damage from Lethal Force Authorized hit, and clicked Rebirth while the DoT was ticking, I'd have "plenty" of Health margin remaining, even without using a Resistance Inspiration.

Always good to have fallback options, in case of confusion in the moment (or getting "trapped" animating an attack for too long).

[But the REAL tell is in the Rikti War Zone, inside the Vanguard Compound.]

#48

Tech Issues / Shotgun FX = Automatic Crash t...

Last post by Redlynne - Dec 26, 2024, 03:07 PM

The following is anecdotal rather than conclusively proven, but the bits and pieces fit together.



Since I'm running a Windows client using a Whisky WINE translation in order to run in an M2 Apple Silicon chip, there's a lot of opportunities for "stuff to go wrong" with my client which might not present a problem for a more direct Intel Inside type of windows implementation.

Right now, there are two "hazards" which are highly repeatable/reliable under the software path that I am using for my hardware.

• RE-loading zones that I have been in previously (different character, doesn't matter, same problem) will cause some kind of memory leak that forces a massive degradation in textures to lower quality settings (ignoring the actual settings in Options). First time load to a zone, world textures are crisp ... second time load, world textures are blurry low rez garbage ... third time, fatal crash to desktop.
• Shotgun blasts cause a game client crash to desktop. Perhaps not the 1st or 2nd, but 3+ within camera view will cause a game client crash to desktop rather reliably. Audio is no problem, can HEAR shotgun blasts without any issues whatsoever for a while. Particle FX for Shotgun blasts going off in-camera (or even just CLOSE ENOUGH to be a "render concern") forces a crash to desktop.

The "reloading zone memory leak" (issue 1) is very likely a Whisky WINE issue, since I see in their issue reporting GitHub that other people have reported the issue happening in other games that load by zones (like City of Heroes does).

However, the shotgun blast issue is something that feels very unique and specific to City of Heroes.



So far, the "most egregious" zones where the Shotgun Crash problem manifests for me are in Atlas Park (lots of Hellions using shotguns there), in some parts of Mercy Island and in huge swaths of Port Oakes on redside. This issue is so bad that if I create a new (expendible) Level 1 character, skip the tutorial to zone into Atlas directly, I'll automatically crash to desktop before completing the zone load (or seeing Ms. Liberty).

In Port Oakes, where there are Mooks shooting shotguns at each other in street battles all over the western half of the zone, just getting "too near" to the western side of Port Oakes causes a forced crash to desktop which is unrecoverable and cannot successfully zone in to move away from.



But the REAL tell is in the Rikti War Zone, inside the Vanguard Compound.

For some reason ... and I'm still not sure why ... beside Serpent Drummer and the Vanguard Quartermaster, there is a shooting range set up opposite from the Rikti Test Dummy targets. The dimensions of the shooting range look like something where people ought to be doing rifle practice (long distance to the target papers on clips downrange). Presumably, doing sniper training would be possible (150+ft range to target) given the dimensions and size of the shooting range.

Instead, there's 2 Vanguard NPCs there shooting SHOTGUNS, rather than rifles, on repeat.
I presume they're using Assault Rifle: Buckshot (of some variety) as their attack that they keep endlessly repeating as fast as they can recharge.

They've got a rifle range (80-150ft to targets downrange) and they're blasting away with shotguns (40ft base range). Looks like Vanguard is still hiring from the Shallow End Of The Gene Pool™.

To be fair, since my game client crashes so fast and so reliably it's hard for me to tell exactly WHAT attack they're using ... is it Assault Rifle: Slug? Is it Assault Rifle: Buckshot? Is it Assault Rifle: Bean Bag? Is it something else entirely that is an NPC only version of one of the above?

Bare minimum, whatever attack it is that the trainees on the gunnery range inside the Vanguard Compound are using ... it's REALLY RELIABLE at forcing my game client to fatal crash to desktop. And since there's only 2 NPCs there who use that attack on autofire (and nothing else), whatever that attack power is, there's GOT to be some problem with how it is implemented that is causing my game client to reliably fatal crash to desktop.



Ideally speaking, I'd be happy if someone on the Rebirth Dev team could simply change the attack that those two gunners inside the Vanguard Compound like to use (may I recommend switching them to using Assault Rifle: Sniper Rifle and/or Beam Rifle: Penetrating Ray instead of whatever it is they're doing?) ... but that doesn't solve the issue with the "shotgun blasts" elsewhere in the game in all the other zones.

My sneaking suspicion is that the particle FX for the shotgun blasts has some kind of "loose end" to it graphically, which when done repeatedly triggers the "reload at lower and lower graphics setting" issue like the loading into zones.

• First time = fine
• Second time = marked degradation
• Third time = fatal crash to desktop

If I'm right that it's just a matter of "janky particle FX" doing something "sloppy" which isn't a problem for most windows clients, but which creates a path to a fatal error memory leak on my wonky via Whisky WINE implementation of a windows client running on Apple Silicon via translation layer ... then a more global solution might be to "do something" about how the shotgun blast attack used by NPCs all over Atlas Park, Port Oakes and those two gunners at the firing range inside the Vanguard Compound in the Rikti War Zone would be the more complete solution.

This issue with shotgun blasts forcing my game client to crash to desktop does all kinds of weird things, making entire zones into "DON'T GO THERE" locations ... because once I fall into the Fatal Crash On Zone In issue trap, the only way to get out of it is to have a GM move that character to a different location (where the shotgun blasts are not present) so that I can successfully zone in (and move about).



Interestingly, this means that Praetorian zones and instances are "relatively safe" because there are hardly ANY shotgun blast attacks (of any variety) getting used on goldside. Most attacks are energy gauntlets (PPD) or "energy bursts" from rifles (Resistance) with hardly any shotguns to be found (except in the hands of Longbow or Arachnos, and thankfully they don't use their shotgun attacks much).

Redside is LOUSY with shotgun blasts going off here/there/everywhere almost constantly (especially in street battles between Mooks in western Port Oakes), but there are plenty of other locations on redside where shotguns are used PLENTIFULLY out in the open world.

Blueside is also pretty LOUSY with shotgun blasts happening all over the place in SOME zones, but eventually the blasting away with shotguns falls by the wayside ... except at the shooting range inside the Vanguard Compound.



I know that any sort of Debugging Effort to investigate this report is going to involve someone on the Dev team needing to equip a Flashlight, a Machete and a Very Long Piece Of String™ in order to dive down into the resources (somewhere) to find out where the problem could be. If I'm right, it's just a "never been updated" bit of legacy graphics FX used for the shotgun blasts which was poorly implemented and just needs a tweak to not be prone to causing fatal errors which can cause clients to crash to desktop. I know that other gaming projects have run into these kinds of "hidden flaws" in assets that they buy off the Unreal Engine Store, such that they've got broken geometry built into them (that causes massive memory leaks and other issues), which only show up later on as being issues for some people and not others.

Hopefully, the fact that the 2 gunners at the firing range inside the Vanguard Compound are really reliable in causing this issue would be a good starting point for being able to isolate the cause ... and ideally be able to correct it at its source, removing the issue from ALL NPCs in ALL zones.

I mean, it would be nice ...

#49

Tanker / Re: Tanker, hard spots in all ...

Last post by thilenium - Dec 26, 2024, 12:03 PM

Ok, one thing I noticed is I am not 90%vs cold, only 86% (NBD).

wow, i had a look at other rad builds and they do not achieve this. i had like 2 goes at it myself. time to reverse-engineer a build from those pictures ^^

[good to know]

#50

Controller / Re: Controller, sustained Whir...

Last post by Redlynne - Dec 26, 2024, 11:13 AM

Conclusion:
- even in success i would not actually play this build

Ouchies.
Still ... good to know!



"There are no experimental failures. There's only more data."
- Bryce Lynch, Head of Research & Development, Network XXIII

"To lose is to win, and he who wins shall lose."
- Rassilon's warning against the desire for immortality