Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMI have no idea why you're calling tanking the three War Walkers that appear in every instance of the Underground 'Facetanking'.
For simplicity ... and to explain to anyone new to tanking iTrials that there is no getting away from/denying the special attacks of the War Walkers when you're the aggro magnet.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMYou never made a single comment about my repeated accomplishments with SR
Because I am not familiar with them.
I haven't followed your exploits, nor do I see reference to them here in the Rebirth Forums where I might be able to access that information.
I know that mercury rising likes to cite you (a lot), so I presume you know more than your fair share ... but beyond that, I barely know you or any of the research you have done on builds for Rebirth.
And no, I'm not on Discord.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMyet you persist in lauding your own efforts in League chat and in the forums, despite my already covering this ground that you seem to think is virgin.
What may be "old hat" to you is still "new" for me.
Also, I'm detecting snark, offense and belittlement in your response here. Are you just so in the habit of talking down to people who don't know everything you do that you haven't noticed?
I'm trying to create a record of "what works, and why" which is then accessible to other people who come to Rebirth (which is not exactly the same as other servers) so that others can learn from my experiences and mistakes (what works, what doesn't) so that new people can take that information and incorporate it into their own builds and theorycrafting. Once the "completeness" of understanding is shared, it can be modulated into new forms, new ideas and yield new discoveries of new synergies.
Not sure why you find that so ... offensive.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMEven in the post I'm responding to you're behaving as if myself, Atom Bomb, and Galvanized Decree (among many others, I'm sure) don't regularly survive LFA just fine.
Question: At which point did I state (unequivocably) or even imply (notionally) that surviving Lethal Force Authorized is an "impossible task" which has "never been done before by anybody" ...?
Answer:
I DIDN'T. But you're sure acting as though I did. You're even posting with a tone of having your thunder stolen, despite nothing of the sort being the case.
OF COURSE other Tank builds are capable of surviving Lethal Force Authorized on the regular. Resistance based protection schemes are very good at it, because Resistance "works" against Lethal Force Authorized (while Defense "doesn't" because of the Targeted mechanic, which bypasses Defense protection schemes completely, "negating" almost the entire Super Reflexes primary powerset as a factor).
The way that Lethal Force Authorized "works" makes it uniquely challenging for Super Reflexes, because of the mismatch in protection schemes. This creates something of a high hurdle for a Super Reflexes Tanker (such as myself, but also others) to overcome through build strategy, and if necessary, use of powers plus consumables. Super Reflexes is "less than ideal" for the factors you need to be able to survive being hit by Lethal Force Authorized (since the attack is basically
Kryptonite to Defense protection schemes).
That's why I not only wanted to find a solution to the problem (since details on how to do so are ... scarce ... here on the Rebirth Forums) and explain how the solution I've found WORKS so that others can learn from the example. That then makes knowledge and information about means and methods clearer for new players who come to Rebirth, or even existing players who want to bring new alts into regular rotations for iTrials who might want to know how to overcome this challenge.
Feel free to post your own insights on the topic (in your own thread, so you can take credit for what you know) so that EVERYONE can benefit from your experiences, not just yourself.
Knowledge Shared Is Knowledge Multiplied.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMIncluded below is the Data Chunk for anyone who wants to see my take on an SR/ Tanker that, months ago now, tanked War Walkers several times.
Unfortunately, I cannot get Mids' Reborn to work/run on my computer, so whatever information is contained within that Data Chunk is inaccessible to me.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMThe only death I had was from one yutz who insisted on standing next to me while we were both targeted, meaning that I had to survive two Lethal Force Authorized, something that most of my other tanking characters with better armor sets could survive multiples of with little trouble. Your equation does not include the reality that other yutzes will stand next to you and force you to endure multiple LFAs.
I was not aware that it was possible to multi-stack LFAs onto Targeted Players in overlapping AoEs.
So that's new information that should probably have been shared more widely/thoroughly.
The simplest counter to that problem (tactical positioning relative to allies) that I can think of would be to use Hover (or other power that grants flight) to stay "above the fray" down on the ground. By extending the battle into 3D space above the floor, as the aggro magnet you reduce the risk of allies (below you) being Targeted for special attacks. By reducing the opportunities for allies to be near the aggro magnet, you reduce the number of allies who can be
Targeted for special attacks, increasing the survival rate of all allies in the fight.
Of course, execution of that strategy will require the use of both a Taunt and (ideally) a ranged attack power, the latter of which are obtainable from an Epic/Patrol Pool powerset. The
Threat Formula requires damage as a multiplier factor, so being able to apply damage while Taunting from out of melee range (to stay away from allies on the ground) becomes the smart play.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMI'd add that tanking WW's is something that I've been forced to do with +1 Brutes because no one else would tank. Both times I had to do that went fine, by the way.
Scary!
If you've got a Resistance based protection scheme, you should be alright (if you're operating at the 85% Energy Resistance cap for Brutes).
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMI appreciate your experimentation with Valiance. On its own it is a supremely mediocre power. Knowing that it will cause Panacea to proc on other players makes it an interesting option. Thank you for that.
We make every pretense of competency around here.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMBut any attempt on your part to celebrate actually surviving the War Walkers (which is a basic requirement of tanking I-trials and that has already been done on SR, as well as other, much better equipped powersets) seems like self-absorbed flexing.
Yes, it's been done before.
But
I've had trouble doing it.
The simple fact of the matter is that in many ways, Super Reflexes (as a powerset) is basically optimized for "tanking trash" (Minions, LTs, Bosses, Elite Bosses) ... but will often times tend to fall short when confronted by AVs, particularly ones with "special attack mechanics" that completely bypass Super Reflexes as a protection scheme. This makes Super Reflexes "great" with leveling content (especially when exemplared) but not particularly great when confronting FINAL BOSS type encounters, because of all the ways that special attacks tend to bypass Defense but not Resistance ... which is a problem for a protection scheme that is all Defense with next to no Resistance.
Figuring out schemes, methods and synergies to overcome that "well known weakness" in Super Reflexes, as a powerset and as a protection method, is something that ought to be shared with others, rather than something that should be kept hidden and private.
Knowledge Shared Is Knowledge Multiplied.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMWhy you can't celebrate anyone else's previous accomplishments in this area is beyond me.
Because I don't
KNOW EVERYTHING.
I'm not intimately familiar with everyone else's builds, strategies, playstyles, tips, tricks and tactics. Just because someone else can do something doesn't mean I know everything about how they do it.
There is precious little information on this topic here on the Rebirth Forums.
Why are you so aghast that I'm doing
anything at all to fill that void with accessible knowledge?
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMPlenty of other people have figured our how to survive it just fine, even on lame SR. Would it really kill you to just ask how?
Kismet. Your resentment is showing.
Now it's starting to sound like a grudge, perhaps verging on spite at this point.
And remember, you're not just talking to me here ... you're talking to everyone else who ever comes to Rebirth and reads these forums. Think about how what you're saying will sound to anyone new who comes to Rebirth and reads what you're saying to me. If you didn't know anyone here and saw this level of malice and resentment being thrown around in the forums, would you want to join a server with potentially toxic "know it all" players?
These forums are not a private discord or an in-game private tell.
Trash talking and "git gud" may be par for the course in PvP games, but I'd hate to think of it becoming the expectation in a City of Heroes server. Why? Because we're better than that.
Your mileage may vary, of course.
Quote from: Kismet on Dec 19, 2024, 12:38 AMActual Facetanking, meaning simply fighting the Avatar of Hamidon, only requires a few T2 or T3 Sturdies, used one at a time, along with some modest support, unless it's a full League without much support. In that case, T4 Sturdies or multiples of lower tier are required. With really good support, the Sturdies probably aren't necessary at all.
That's what I figured would probably be necessary.
Facetanking the Avatar is a really unique challenge for an aggro magnet, if you want to be able to survive doing it reliably (no questions asked). Quite a few powersets are very well suited to doing it, while others will tend to struggle more. Getting detoggled due to endurance drain being the Big Threat™ ...
My experience from participating in Underground iTrials is that Facetanking the Avatar is riskier and is more likely to distribute Debt to more participants. I often times see a lot more defeated allies when the strategy is Facetanking the Avatar ... which is great for people with Vengeance, but not so great otherwise, in my estimation.
I agree that the ditch strategy is something of a "cheese" way of doing things, but it's also a Clever Use Of Game Mechanics by players. If it means fewer allies get faceplanted during the encounter, I'd call that preferable (even if it is a bit "cheese" to do it).
