Quote from: Redlynne on Jan 02, 2025, 10:06 AMQuote from: Joshex on Jan 02, 2025, 01:01 AMI see, so you can't add them, the game isn't built to allow that.
Correct.
When you have multiple status effects of the same type, they "layer" on top of each other (in parallel) rather than "chain" together (sequentially).
The boolean condition of whether the status effect "does anything" is determined by the total mag ... the "thickness" of the layers, if you will. This is why 2x stacking is useful in order to generate sufficient mag "depth" to affect $Targets. Mag 2 will only affect Minions, but Mag 2+2 affects Minions, LTs and Bosses, for example.
Each effect runs for its duration independently.
Some powers have stacking limits (limit 1 or limit 4 or limit 8 being the most common), where reapplying the effect overwrites the previous application, discarding any remaining duration of the first application in favor of a "refresh" from the second application. This is often times annotated in the descriptions of powers as being Does Not Stack From Same Caster (or words to that effect).
In other words, you can't think about this problem in terms of simple addition (like you were doing), instead the proper frame is something more akin to TETRIS (kinda sorta, but the analogy is decidedly imperfect).
Quote from: Joshex on Jan 02, 2025, 01:01 AMwhat we could do is leave taunt alone, and put in a separate +Attract -speed -rech -fly -jump -range - def power. which really wasn't the goal, but would be more standard.
Taunt is the -Range power. It is pretty unique in that respect, for all Tanker and Brute+Scrapper Taunts ... to "force" Foes to reposition themselves closer to the caster of the Taunt. Taunt in primary/secondary powersets will include -Range, while the Presence Pool: Provoke power for taunting does not.
To be honest with you, I think you would probably be better off (conceptually) starting with Ice Armor as a foundational basis/starting point and then modifying Ice Armor: Chilling Embrace such that all of the Slow effects of Ice into being more of a -Speed (fly, jump, run) and -Range debuff. Add +Attract but lose the -Recharge effect. Exchange the -Damage effect for a -Regeneration effect on all affected Foes. The real challenge though would be working out some way to run the Endurance Cost that doesn't "bankrupt" the blue bar too reliably ... one way would be to impose a Max 10 Targets limit on it, along with a limited PBAoE radius.
That gives you a "pull them in so they can't get out" type of PBAoE Aura.
If you want to get EXTRA fancy, could set up the power such that it has "overlapping bands" of effect that add up as Foes get drawn in closer.
20ft radius = 25% effect
16ft radius = 25% effect
12ft radius = 25% effect
8ft radius = 25% effect
You then let all of those effects stack with each other concurrently. So what you wind up with is:
20ft radius: 25% effect
16ft radius: 25+25 = 50% effect
12ft radius: 25+25+25 = 75% effect
8ft radius: 25+25+25+25 = 100% effect
This would then let you do things like setting up each range band as being "equivalent to mag 1" in status effect terms (for purposes of illustration), such that Minions are affected (mag 1+1=2) at 16ft radius ... Lieutenants are affected (mag 1+1+1=3) at 12 ft radius ... and Bosses are only affected (mag 1+1+1+1=4) at 8ft radius. So you get a sort of "layered wedding cake" type of effect behavior out of the power (at the expense of 4x the server computation overhead, which might be a deal breaker, but this is just Blue Sky™ wishful thinking at this point).
Continuing that idea, you can exchange Ice Armor: Icicles for something more akin to a Warshade's Orbiting Death power ... except that instead of doing a (single) PBAoE damage effect like Orbiting Death does, set it up as a PBAoE that does Grant Power to up to Max 5 Targets which causes affected Foes to generate an 8ft PBAoE of damage around themselves for a single damage pulse. So Gravity Armor: Tidal Disruption toggle turns into a power that does more PBAoE damage the more Foes you have around you (up to 5), since they're each generating their own damage aura around themselves while in your "orbit" and close enough to be affected.
Way the power behaves is that the more Foes cluster around you, the more damage they deal to each other as your gravity power "tears them apart" and sends bits of debris swirling around, which become "impactors" under your control that slam into your Foes. Basically, they start "breaking up" under the tidal effects of your gravity power and even rocks and pebbles from the ground turn into "death by a thousand cuts" type missiles that deal harm to your Foes ... such that the more Foes around you, the more debris being generated, the more damage they take from being "trapped" in orbit around you, getting "shredded" by the gravitic tidal forces.
Other ideas that come to mind for a Gravity Melee powerset would be something akin to a Gravity Whip power.
If the Foe is "distant" (more than 20ft) then it rapidly pulls them towards the caster. This is a "move them" rather than a "move you" type of power.
If the Foe is "close" (10-20ft) then it does minor damage and a Knockdown.
If the Foe is "too close" (under 10ft) then it does major damage and a big Knockback (think Force Field: Repulsion Bolt of mag 11+ type knockback).
This then sets up the opportunity for a "pull/push" type of behavior that can "juggle" the positioning of a Foe. From far away, it pulls them in, and from close up it pushes them away.
A really wild alternative for this kind of a Gravity Whip power would be to not make it a single target, but a 30º 40ft Cone attack. Reason why a Cone would be especially good is because Cones can be enhanced for Range (meaning the 40ft base radius can go up!). Additionally, it's also possible to use the "Hop & Pop" move with Cone attacks by melee oriented ATs, such that you jump up vertically so as to "aim" the Cone DOWN below you at your selected $Target. With enough height on the jump for the "Hop & Pop" you can catch multiple Foes clustered around your position on the ground using a Cone that is cast while up in the air during your jump. That way, if you don't want to make a big Knockback against a single Foe with Gravity Whip, you can just jump UP above 10ft from your $Target and get the minor damage+knockdown effect instead on a larger number of Foes that were herded up around your position on the ground.
I learned the "Hop & Pop" move while playing Ice/Ice on a Tanker so as to turn Frost (a 10ft 90º Cone, Max 10 Targets) into something of a "poor man's PBAoE" attack against all the Foes that clustered up around me. Adding Range enhancement to extend that range to ~16ft 90º Cone did wonders for increasing the number of Foes I could hit with Frost when doing the "Hop & Pop" move (no need for Combat Jumping). Was remarkably effective at dealing damage and stacking Slows onto stuff, keeping them "trapped" in close against my Ice/Ice Tanker (where all the damage and debuffing was happening).
this is the kind of feedback I was hoping for from the start lol. this is going to be a tough one to reply to as I need to incorporate what you are saying in some meaningful way.
I'm going to start with something potentially interesting; I had another power concept Idea for a gravity armor/aura or melee set; Foe Float. we already have this mechanic in game, it's a 2 fanged effect foe +fly and foe hold, this combination raises the character in the air but prevents them from moving. we see this in the key's reactor trial with positron's obliteration beam. I'm thinking some variant of this effect should fit into the melee or aura set. but only if when held the enemy can still be pulled in via attract. I imagine something like Ghost Widow's hold animation, where the enemy doesn't just float, they spin.
the float here would serve a secondary purpose, when attracted while floating enemies will push eachother around into a neat ball around the player, not just a ring, because they can fly, this increases the potential number of enemies in melee AoE range.
not sure exactly where or how to fit this into the sets but, it's an interesting idea.
on the topic of conversion of Chilling Embrace to Gravity Aura;
I'm with you on most of it until we hit the -regen on it. I have struggled to think of gravity based concepts which would effect regeneration either positive or negative, instead I had been forced to branch out into spacial phenomenon that are theoretically propelled by gravity, like white holes, wormholes and solar fusion. so depending on what theoretical concept we target for the power it might be hard to imagine how it could lead to -regeneration, however with certain concepts it'd be fairly easy to imagine, however for the concept of a mere "Gravity Well" it's just something that pulls you in, and maybe slows you down, but probably wont damage you or stop you from regenerating, we are on a gravity well right now, it's called Earth.
For this specific set though, I rather think it's iteration of black hole will have sufficient damage over time so that -regen while nice, wont be necessary. instead the idea behind -rech would be more beneficial to the set as you'd be attacked less frequently.
strong def + infrequently attacked +decent regen = ability to stay standing in mobs for this set, or at least that was the idea behind it. it wont have much resistance like ice armor has, theres no physical structure to gravity which could deflect any percent of the damage. essentially the only concepts I could come up with related to gravity which would theoretically supply resistance were Mass, Space-Time Distortion, and Gravity Lensing
I was thinking of a power called "Heavy Mass", initially it was slated to be (+resistance to: Knockback, Hold, Immobilize, Attract, Repel, Teleport, -speed(fly, run, jump), res debuff(speed, recovery, regen, defense)) but no mez resist!
we could add some +res onto that to Smashing, Lethal, Energy, Negative, Fire, and Cold, no toxic nor psionic. but something tells me that might be too much for one power, likely splitting it into 2 powers. looking at Ice Armor it might be good to split the Res into multiple powers, for example "Gravity Lensing" could be the Tier 1 power, (+def all but psionic (15%), +res Energy, Negative (20%))
then Heavy Mass (auto) would have +res movement inhibitation and +res kb etc, and +res smashing, lethal (22.5%)
not sure if I could find a place for heat and cold res, maybe Solar Fusion +regen, +recovery, +res fire, cold(15%).
this would however mean frankenslotting would be common for gravity Aura and people would have to chose which effect of the power to enhance and how much.
I think with that we'd have 8 powers + one per target(upto 10 to 15) buff/bebuff, so 9 powers like the following (listed by level available to a tanker):
(in no way is this anything other than a very rough draft, so forgive me for any overdone numbers or unreasonable abilities for powers, if you see something overdone or unreasonable, attempt to revise it if you can, or just highlight it, I'd appreciate it. this is just attempting to put it in some kind of order, it's really hard to look at like 4 different armor sets and make a fair amalgamation of them.)
Gravity Aura powers:
L1: Toggle: Gravity Lensing, (+def All but psionic (15%), +res Energy, Negative(12.5%))
L1: Auto: Wormhole, (+def Smashing, lethal, Energy, Negative(10%), +recovery(33%), +regeneration(75%))
L2: Toggle: Gravity Well, PBAoE Foe Attract, +rech, -speed (drops on: Mez)
L6: Auto: Heavy Mass, (+res smashing, lethal(22.5%), +resistance to: Knockback, Hold, Immobilize, Attract, Repel, Teleport, -speed(fly, run, jump), res debuff(speed, recovery, regen, defense))
L8: Toggle: Orbit Control (+def All(+1% for upto 10 targets), Foe -rech(10%) -range(50%) -defense(All, 10%) (drops on: Mez))
L12: Toggle: Solar Fusion (+res fire, cold(15%), +regeneration(100%), +recovery(77%))
L18: Click: Whitehole, (Self Rez, Untouchable 30 seconds, with 50% HP, 25% End), Auto: PBAoE Self+Team(+recovery(30%) -rech(15%) +regeneration(50%), +res mez(10%))
L26: Click: (120 seconds) Black Hole, PBAoE Superior DoT Smashing Negative, foe: Attract, Float, -speed, +rech(50%), -Teleport
L32: Click: (360 seconds) Space-Time Distortion, Self: +def All(20%), +res All(12.5%), +regen(100%), +recovery(100%), -rech, Crash:(180 seconds) self -recovery(-100%), -end(75%), -Regeneration(-100%), +rech(50%)
As for the banding idea, it's a great idea, if allowed, however perhaps 2 bands, 1 band that's just attract on the outside, and a second band that's attract + other effects on the insid for gravity well.
Whereas for black hole, use 2 bands of different effect damage, an Event Horizon around black hole where there's a weaker attract and status debuffs, and a Tidal Effect of grantPBAoE 10?DoT x1 (for upto 5 targets per tick)
But when they get sucked in further into the central band, suddenly wham 100? initial damage + (10 DoT x5 Smashing, 10 DoT x5 Negative) to upto 10 targets per tick but not granting a pbaoe to enemies). "ouch" you either get crushed inside or you get hit with flares of chewed up bits outside.
Gravity Melee considerations
I love the Gravity Whip idea
one thing though:
'If the Foe is "too close" (under 10ft) then it does major damage and a big Knockback (think Force Field: Repulsion Bolt of mag 11+ type knockback).'
not sure if want. as a tank the last thing you want is to knock targets out of melee range, I had put that idea on an initial design for Meteor Strike, because what did I think would happen to foes standing around such an impact? but I'm not too hot on chasing down KBed enemies or having them escape the melee damage zone of AoEs.
I like the fact it's a ranged cone attract. it could be a very useful tool for pulling in stubborn "I default to ranged = always, and -100% range = a range of 12ft" enemies and for scaredy-cat enemies "oh.. wow you're really laying the smackdown on them there, I'm-a go run around the map aimlessly".
I'm not certain I could put together a whole gravity melee rough draft yet.
anyways I've incorporated your ideas and advice as best as my limited understanding can do so at the current time, feel free to counter my suggestions.
