Author Topic: Damage for Defender and Corrupter  (Read 317 times)

Tiojion

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Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« on: June 29, 2021, 09:13:45 pm »
Is the damage for Defenders and Corrupters reversed?

1)  The information when creating a ranged character appears to be mixed up so I took two characters in to check out, a Defender and a Corrupter.  Both were using the exact same powers and level 1 fighting the exact same type mobs.  Their attack power was the first fire attack.  I expected the Defender to do a little less damage but he does more according to the combat log (7.95 counting the burn afterward vs 7.65 for the Corrupter).  I then checked Blaster and Guardian using the same starting attack.  Blaster was 9.35 as expected.  Guardian was 7.56.  So the ranged damage hierarchy currently appears to be:

Blaster--9.35
Defender--7.95
Corrupter--7.65
Guardian--7.56

Edit:  I also just ran the same test using a different power set.  Same results.  Defender is doing more damage than the Corrupter in actual combat.

I know Defender is supposed to be less damaging than a corrupter and better at buffs/debuffs.  Right now that isn't the case.

Perhaps the Defender and Corrupter have been reversed.  I don't have a way of checking the debuff strengths in game other than to trust the details screen but these two classes have at least their damage reversed.  The details screen for damage powers in game lists the Defender as doing less damage than the Corrupter but it isn't doing so in actual combat, both by the damage log numbers and by how many attacks have to land to defeat the same mob.

2)  Pertaining to the mixed up character creation detail screens I mentioned at the start, Blaster and Corrupter damage information in the character creator for all attacks of these two classes appears to be backward.  Corrupter lists higher damage than any other ranged class when looking at their details screen while creating a character (even though it currently is behind Defender in game).  Meanwhile the Blaster's detail screen lists it second behind Corrupter when creating a character (but is still the best damage in the actual game as they should be).

The bottom line is that Corruter appears to be messed up both in the Character Creator details and more importantly in the actual game, with Defender getting a stealth buff in the process.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2021, 09:44:31 pm by Tiojion »

Nod

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Re: Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2021, 11:32:50 pm »
Was this solo?
Defenders get a bump when less than 3 people on the team.

Tiojion

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Re: Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2021, 01:34:34 am »
It was solo.  Defender gets a bump past Corrupter?  That seems like a pretty big bump for a class that already is better at buff/debuff.  That would make them better than Corrupters in every way solo as well as make them still more group friendly with their non combat strength.  It wasn't like Defender was weak solo to begin with.  With super solo defenders in play what would be the purpose of Corrupter in or out of a party?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2021, 01:55:28 am by Tiojion »

Draggynn

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Re: Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2021, 02:26:39 am »
I do love getting mathy, so bear with me.
tldr: Everything is correct and corruptors can deal a lot more damage than defenders.
Note that the numbers I'm using are all above lvl 20, before level 20 there are slightly different multipliers.

Defender have a damage multiplier of 0.65 ranged (and 0.55 melee) while corruptors have a damage multiplier of 0.75 for ranged and melee.

The defender inherent vigilance (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Inherent_Powers#Vigilance) gives a defender a 30% damage bonus solo (20% with one teammate, 10% with two teammates, and 0% with three or more teammates).  Therefore a base attack for a defender when solo deals 0.65 * 1.3 = 0.845, which is higher than the corruptor's 0.75.

However, their base multiplier is still lower.  So let's suppose that a power were enhanced 100% (slightly above what you would get with 3 damage enhancements).  Then defenders would effectively deal (0.65 * 2.3) = 1.495 and corruptors would deal (0.75 * 2.0) = 1.5.  So at this point corruptors are already dealing more damage, albeit only slightly, but this will increase as there are more damage bonuses from buffs, set bonuses, eating a red inspiration, etc.  Of course, when teamed the defender falls to 1.3 (=0.65*2.0).

Furthermore, corruptors have a damage cap of 500% while defenders have a damage cap of 400%.  Therefore at the extreme (say capped due to Fulcrum Shift) corruptors can deal 5*0.75 = 3.75, while defenders can only deal 4*0.65 = 2.6.

Now add on top of that the corruptor inherent scourge (https://wiki.cityofheroesrebirth.com/wiki/Scourge) which means that once enemies are below 50% health they have a chance to deal double damage and their damage increases even further relative to defenders (at least against hard targets that are going to suffer more than a couple hits before defeat).

As someone who primarily plays defenders, I agree that they are strong and their stronger buffs/debuffs is why I prefer them over corruptors.  I think a lot of people don't realize that solo their damage output is comparable which is part of what leads to much higher number of corruptors than defenders.  But if the only thing you care about is damage, corruptors have the ability to deal a lot more than defenders and given the breakdown on the server, I would say most people feel that this more than makes up for their reduced buffs and debuffs.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2021, 01:10:16 pm by Draggynn »
@Draggynn: Storm Summoning Psychic Defender and Badge Hunter, formerly a resident of Virtue
See my collection of commissioned art: https://www.deviantart.com/drag-gynn

Tiojion

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Re: Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2021, 06:08:45 am »
Thanks for the quick replies!  Also thanks for the math.  It sounds like both are working as intended.  The disparity is only at the lowest levels.

That leaves only the misinformation in the Blaster and Corrupter detail info in Character Creation that appear to be reversed.

PS  Defenders and Corrupters were my favorite classes but they weren't both an option on either side when I last played.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2021, 06:14:10 am by Tiojion »

Draggynn

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Re: Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2021, 01:45:31 pm »
Hey Tiojion, I'm trying to figure out what you're seeing in the character creator.
I looked at the overview and the power detail and those look correct to me (multipliers are different from what I listed above because we're sub lvl 20, but it still goes Defender < Corruptor < Blaster, see screenshots below)  So I suspect you're looking at something else?

Defender:


Corruptor:


Blaster
@Draggynn: Storm Summoning Psychic Defender and Badge Hunter, formerly a resident of Virtue
See my collection of commissioned art: https://www.deviantart.com/drag-gynn

Tiojion

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Re: Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2021, 05:00:52 pm »
The damage related power details for Blaster and Corrupter are reversed (or misleading).

Corrupter shows numbers that are the highest by far (ex. 5.14 per cast cycle as the Blaster should be as the top ranked ranged damage dealer).
Blaster shows the numbers in line with what the Corrupter's number's should be (ex. 3.26 per cast cycle).
The Defender's numbers are as they should be (not counting the Vigilance bonus).

The "Average Damage," "Damage per Activation Time," and "Damage per Cast Cycle" appear to be reversed for the Blaster and Corrupter's power details for all powers.

There might be another explanation though.  The Corrupter lists damage from "Fire Damage on Target" twice at the bottom of the window.  That is pushing their totals much higher.  Otherwise the Corrupter's numbers would be sitting in between Defender and Blaster, albeit Blaster's numbers wouldn't appear to reflect the 20%+ they do in actual combat (at level 1).  Is the repeat damage listed at the bottom of the Corrupter's power detail window meant to show what they will do if Corruption takes place?  If this repeat number doesn't take place every attack it's throwing off the average results listed above since it's being counted all the time.  The details show Blasters doing 10 damage while the Corrupter does 16.  That's a huge margin!

Even if that repeat damage number below was thrown out the average numbers above still appear to be inaccurate.  Blaster nets a much higher percentage in game (20%+ higher?).  These numbers don't reflect that margin.

Level 1 Blaster does 9.35 damage in game.
Level 1 Corrupter does 7.65 damage in game.

Blaster has a 20%+ result but that isn't reflected in the power details.
Perhaps Blaster's damage margin at level one is bigger then it is later and the power detail numbers show the later results.  If not then Blaster and Corrupter may be reversed or "off."

It might seem picky but it also might account for why there are so many Corrupters if people are seeing Corrupter damage numbers listed as vastly superior to other ranged classes at Character Creation.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2021, 05:45:10 pm by Tiojion »

Draggynn

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Re: Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2021, 08:17:50 pm »
I guess the interesting question becomes what the correct number to show is.  The second damage number is indeed the additional damage from scourge which is getting added to the damage computation number for corruptors.  So that's accurate anytime scourge activates, and always correct below 10% health.  (I suppose you could add that as as 30% which would be the area in the plot on the scourge page, but that will still be misleading.  And I suspect it's a non trivial amount of work to get that number to be a special computation for Corruptors, so I think it's unlikely to get changed anytime soon, but I agree that the detailed numbers are misleading.
@Draggynn: Storm Summoning Psychic Defender and Badge Hunter, formerly a resident of Virtue
See my collection of commissioned art: https://www.deviantart.com/drag-gynn

Tiojion

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Re: Damage for Defender and Corrupter
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2021, 09:13:02 pm »
I would say that the repeat number doesn't really need to be listed at all or included in the tabulation.  The bonus for Defender isn't.  Other classes just show their base damage. Having this one class show something other than base misleads when all the others show just their baseline before special modifiers.