Author Topic: [Issue 5] Rolling Barrage set  (Read 4194 times)

Redlynne

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[Issue 5] Rolling Barrage set
« on: January 21, 2023, 01:11:59 am »
Issue 5 Patch Notes LINK

Quote
Rolling Barrage
This uncommon Targeted AoE set is available from level 25 to 50, and offers new combinations of enhancements. Additionally, Rolling Barrage expands the set bonus variety for Targeted AoEs.

Enhancements:
Accuracy/Damage
Damage/Endurance
Damage/Recharge
Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
Damage/Endurance/Recharge

Set Bonuses:
2-piece: 7.5% Range
3-piece: 1.125% Maximum HP
4-piece: 2.5% Damage
5-piece: 3.75% Recharge Time
6-piece: 2.5% Smashing/Lethal Defense

This set's recipes drop from normal content and can be obtained at various merit vendors.

Question.
Why does a set with No Range Enhancement within the set itself grant a 2-piece global range buff?

Indeed, the Target AoE sets are remarkably consistently bad (as are the Ranged Damage sets, to be fair) at including any kind of Range buffing native to the enhancements themselves individually.

Counter-proposal (changes in bold text).

Accuracy/Damage
Damage/Endurance
Damage/Range
Accuracy/Damage/Range
Accuracy/Endurance/Range
Damage/Endurance/Range

2-piece: 7.5% Range
3-piece: 1.125% Maximum HP
4-piece: 2.5% Damage
5-piece: 7.5% Recharge Time
6-piece: 2.5% Smashing/Lethal Defense, 1.25% Melee Defense

I would even go so far as to say that I would want to have this exact same set available to Ranged Damage (go figure...) as well as Target AoE sets.


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MuonNeutrino

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Re: [Issue 5] Rolling Barrage set
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2023, 12:16:50 pm »
Question.
Why does a set with No Range Enhancement within the set itself grant a 2-piece global range buff?

More or less, the reason is that, the set bonus notwithstanding, Rolling Barrage isn't intended to be a range-focused set. Rather, it's intended to be the category's equivalent to Thunderstrike or Crushing Impact - the easy-to-acquire uncommon-grade set that covers a wide level range up to max level, with good but not overwhelming set bonuses, that contains a bunch of broadly useful triples.

Right now, in TAoE to get an acc/end/rech or dam/end/rech you have to use a pvp recipe, and acc/dam/rech is available only in a rare set and the winter set, all of which are relatively much more difficult to acquire. That was the hole this set was meant to cover in terms of enhancement pieces. A range-focused set could be an interesting idea, and I'm not opposed to the idea of doing one at some point, but this isn't that set. (The idea of a 'universal ranged attack' set is also an interesting one; merged set categories like that are something we've been playing with lately and I might revisit that one.)

The range set bonus is there partly for flavor (the more times you slot the set - the more guns you have in your barrage - the more range you get - the farther your barrage can roll forward), and partly because range as a set bonus is fairly uncommon so this adds some more variety to set bonus options, rather than because the set is range-focused. The recharge bonus being relatively small is because the set also provides a desirable defense bonus, so I don't want to go overboard on the bonuses on an uncommon-grade set. And yeah, the defense bonus should indeed have a 1.25% melee component, that's just an omission in the patch notes and it does indeed have that component in the game.
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Redlynne

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Re: [Issue 5] Rolling Barrage set
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2023, 08:07:37 pm »
More or less, the reason is that, the set bonus notwithstanding, Rolling Barrage isn't intended to be a range-focused set. Rather, it's intended to be the category's equivalent to Thunderstrike or Crushing Impact - the easy-to-acquire uncommon-grade set that covers a wide level range up to max level, with good but not overwhelming set bonuses, that contains a bunch of broadly useful triples.

So ... it does something I don't need in any of my builds (past, present or future) ...

Right now, in TAoE to get an acc/end/rech or dam/end/rech you have to use a pvp recipe, and acc/dam/rech is available only in a rare set and the winter set, all of which are relatively much more difficult to acquire.

Curious.
I find myself almost NEVER wanting that combination in ANY powers that I build for due to one excessively simple reason.

Recharge enhancement on the enhancements themselves kills Proc chances.

What I want in a Target AoE set is something that pretty much doesn't exist ... Acc/Dam/Range ... or even Acc/Dam/End/Range ... but recharge enhancement is something I go out of my way to AVOID, rather than embrace (especially if Frankenslotting).

That was the hole this set was meant to cover in terms of enhancement pieces.

Which is where you lose me with the conceptual scaffolding you've offered.
You're basically trying to solve a problem that I don't have.

Consider.

Rolling Barrage
Accuracy/Damage
Damage/Endurance
Damage/Recharge
Accuracy/Endurance/Recharge
Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
Damage/Endurance/Recharge
= 1.625 SO Accuracy ... 2.25 SO Damage ... 1.625 SO Endurance ... 2.125 SO Recharge = 7.625 SO enhancements equivalence

Annihilation set
Accuracy/Damage
Damage/Recharge
Accuracy/Damage/Recharge
Accuracy/Damage/Endurance
Accuracy/Damage/Recharge/Endurance
Proc: -Resistance debuff
= 2.0625 SO Accuracy ... 2.6875 SO Damage ... 0.9375 SO Endurance ... 1.5625 SO Recharge + Proc = 7.25 SO enhancement equivalence + Proc

Basically, your Rolling Barrage delivers ... reduced Accuracy AND Damage ... in exchange for improved Endurance and Recharge reduction ... which is ultimately a BAD TRADE.
Allow me to illustrate why trading damage enhancement for endurance and recharge enhancement instead is not as valuable as you might think.

Let's say (for simplistic comparison purposes to illustrate what I'm talking about here most effectively) ... that an attack with no enhancement needs to hit a Foe 4x in order to defeat that Foe.
Let's also stipulate that the attack costs 4 END per use (to keep the math simple) and takes 4 seconds to recharge and 2 seconds to animate.
I'm purposefully ignoring accuracy and postulating this as an auto-hit matrix of scenarios to reduce variability and make my point clear.

Here's what happens with a single SO enhancement to either damage or endurance or recharge when slotted into this benchmark power scenario.

Zero Enhancement = 4 attacks = 4 animations (8 seconds) + 3 recharges (12 seconds) = 20 seconds to defeat Foe @ 16 END cost

So that's the benchmark.
So what happens if we slot a single SO into that hypothetical power in that scenario?
Well ...

Damage SO = 3 attacks = 3 animations (6 seconds) + 2 recharges (8 seconds) = 14 seconds to defeat Foe @ 12 END cost
Endurance SO = 4 attacks = 4 animations (8 seconds) + 3 recharges (12 seconds) = 20 seconds to defeat Foe @ 12 END cost
Recharge SO = 4 attacks = 4 animations (8 seconds) + 3 recharges (9 seconds) = 17 seconds to defeat Foe @ 16 END cost

And just for giggles ... let's "cheat" the premise and put Endurance+Recharge together (2 slots worth!) up against a single Damage slot ... what happens then?

Endurance+Recharge SO = 4 attacks = 4 animations (8 seconds) + 3 recharges (9 seconds) = 17 seconds to defeat Foe @ 12 END cost
Damage SO = 3 attacks = 3 animations (6 seconds) + 2 recharges (8 seconds) = 14 seconds to defeat Foe @ 12 END cost

In other words ... Damage enhancement is more effective and more useful to enhance than Endurance OR Recharge ... until Damage enhancement gets capped by ED.

This is why when I say that trading Damage (and Accuracy!) enhancement for Endurance and Recharge instead is a BAD MOVEā„¢ on your part as a developer, I'm not dabbling in hyperbole here.
You ALWAYS want to buff up Damage until ED is giving you a haircut ... and then and only then does it make sense to start diversifying into Endurance and Recharge buffing for a damaging attack power.

If your intention was to create a set that is only useful as a Frankenslotter to be harvested for spare parts ... then, mission accomplished (I guess)?
If your intention was to create a compelling alternative to what is already available ... then you've missed the mark ... BADLY.
The formulation you've come up with does things that builds do not need, by sacrificing the things that they do need (and want and desire) in order to get there.

A range-focused set could be an interesting idea, and I'm not opposed to the idea of doing one at some point, but this isn't that set.

Not to harsh on you too convincingly here ... but I cannot think of ANY circumstances in which the Rolling Barrage set would be preferable to the Annihilation set ... or the Detonation set ... or even the Positron's Blast set ... except maybe as a 2-slot Frankenslotter, but DEFINITELY NEVER as a 6-slot option.
Sorry.

(The idea of a 'universal ranged attack' set is also an interesting one; merged set categories like that are something we've been playing with lately and I might revisit that one.)

That wasn't somewhere I was going, but agree that a Universal Ranged Damage (single target, TAoE, cone) set would be an interesting direction for future development(s).

The range set bonus is there partly for flavor (the more times you slot the set - the more guns you have in your barrage - the more range you get - the farther your barrage can roll forward), and partly because range as a set bonus is fairly uncommon so this adds some more variety to set bonus options, rather than because the set is range-focused. The recharge bonus being relatively small is because the set also provides a desirable defense bonus, so I don't want to go overboard on the bonuses on an uncommon-grade set. And yeah, the defense bonus should indeed have a 1.25% melee component, that's just an omission in the patch notes and it does indeed have that component in the game.

Yeah ... in that case, this new set is going to be mostly a hard pass for me then, with only the most boutique niche application uses (2-set bonus) for anything I might ever want to build. It's objectively "weaker" than the alternatives, and the set bonuses are not in and of themselves compelling enough to make me want to use this set (in a 6-slot configuration) over the already available alternatives. Sorry (not sorry).


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MuonNeutrino

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Re: [Issue 5] Rolling Barrage set
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2023, 03:28:06 pm »
Rolling Barrage
= 1.625 SO Accuracy ... 2.25 SO Damage ... 1.625 SO Endurance ... 2.125 SO Recharge = 7.625 SO enhancements equivalence

Annihilation
= 2.0625 SO Accuracy ... 2.6875 SO Damage ... 0.9375 SO Endurance ... 1.5625 SO Recharge + Proc = 7.25 SO enhancement equivalence + Proc

I think you may want to check your math, you seem to have left out one of the dual-aspect damage components for rolling barrage. The set has three dual-aspect damage enhancements (0.625 each = 1.875) and two triple-aspect damage components (0.5 each = 1) for a total of 2.875 SO equivalent damage, not 2.25, and 8.25 SO total enhancement equivalent, not 7.625.

I agree completely that a set ought to get enough damage to reach the ED caps, because you *do* get the most efficiency out of damage slotting, and so I did that. If I had traded out damage for other enhancement types I would completely agree with your conclusion here, but that's not what I did. It's got equivalent or better damage slotting as the other taoe sets. You may want to reconsider your evaluation in light of this.

The situations where a full set of rolling barrage is intended be desirable over a full set of one of the other non-special taoe sets are ones where you are interested in rolling barrage's greater enhancement in accuracy (vs detonation or posi's), endurance (vs annihilation or posi's), recharge (vs all three sets), or total combined enhancement (vs all three sets), or ease of acquiring pieces (vs annihilation or posi's), or rolling barrage's unique set bonuses of +range (not otherwise available outside of ATOs or PvP sets in pvp) or S/L/melee def (not otherwise available in taoe *or* ranged sets), more than you are interested in the other advantages of those other sets.

And yes, it's also meant to be an attractive option for frankenslotting if you want to do that - not to the detriment of also being attractive to slot the full set, but it's got triples that can fill holes (like acc/end/rech which is *perfect* for the 6th slot in a power that's got 5 posi in it already) and it's also why I put the range bonus as the first one so you still get one of the unique bonuses even when using only a couple enhancements from the set.

Rolling barrage's niche is meant to be that it provides more total enhancement percentage than any other non-superior taoe set, has a couple of set bonus types that you otherwise can't get from slotting up taoes *or* blasts, and is also useful for frankenslotting as well as slotting the full set, while being cheaper and easier to acquire than a rare set like posi's or annihilation. It may not be what you in particular are looking for since it's not meant to offer range enhancement, but it does have a role it fills.
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Redlynne

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Re: [Issue 5] Rolling Barrage set
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2023, 08:57:43 am »
ease of acquiring pieces

For all intents and purposes, this is functionally a NON-ISSUE.

You're not going to get 6-slots of this set all at the same level via drops without going to either a Merit Vendor (most likely), Alignment Vendor (probably foreclosed on if all the set pieces cost 30 merits and thus are not sold by Alignment Vendors!), Astral Thread Vendor (in Ouroboros), or the Auction House (good luck finding it there at the enhancement level you want in a small population game economy!). So acquisition will almost always be done via Reward Merits ... and those just accumulate over time (except when you're spending them), kind of like with INF (if you don't spend it, it just accumulates over time).

Sure, a set that costs 180 Merits for 6 slots (@ 30 each, total 180) will be "cheaper" to acquire than 5 slots @ 75 each plus 1 slot @ 125 (total 500) ... but that "cheaper" benefit is only going to be relevant to the first character you make on the server. Once you've got Alts (and especially if you've already got a Level 50 on your account), being able to accumulate Reward Merits to pay for completed sets that are not Purples or PvP sets is a relatively trivial exercise ... especially if you've been completing Story Arcs and running Strike/Task Forces.

So while the set you've designed may be "cheaper to acquire" ... that fact is not in and of itself sufficient to override other longer term performance considerations (because cheap to buy can also mean cheap forever in terms of return on investment). If anything, I would consider the "cheaper to acquire" point to be more of a Quirk of the set, rather than a Selling Point in its favor (in desirability terms, relative to the alternatives).


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MuonNeutrino

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Re: [Issue 5] Rolling Barrage set
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2023, 11:52:57 am »
Being cheaper certainly isn't meant to be the set's only selling point, or even the main one, but it is still *an* upside. There'll still be more of them ending up on the market than a rare set, and every merit that doesn't go towards the recipes and every inf that doesn't go towards rare salvage to craft them are still more merits and inf available for other things. Many of us do have merits and inf coming out of our ears, but not everyone, and the cost savings is still particularly relevant for newer players, those who spend more time playing at lower levels than at 50, or those who play less frequently. Ease of acquisition by itself wouldn't make up for a set just not being worth using, but it's also not *meant* to, it's just meant as another factor in the cost-benefit evaluation.
Astronomer, teacher, gamer, and procrastinator extraordinaire