Controller, sustained Whirlwind - 1st try (Wind Control - Time Manipulation)

[thilenium]

Morning!

this is going to be a short one. For some months now, I have played around with the idea of making the skill 'Whirlwind' from the Speed-Power pool as sustainable as I can. Testing it out, I have learned a couple of things and had to correct some of my misconceptions. So, this is going to be a documentation about a failure of sorts, and may offer some useful insights on endurance regen, or - more generally - the hunt for the improvement of a small number of stats.

'Whirlwind' looks like an extremely useful form of crowd control, and i can see its use in pvp. It contains a inward repel (there is not a lot of resistance against repel), a knockup, as well as a small damage component. Whereas the cost of keeping it running is already high, but manageable, the real endurance cost comes when you actually start hitting. For every opponent hit every second you loose one endurance. So i figured, i just need to raise endurance regen to a maximum and see where it goes.

all the best, Thilenium


Summary 'Whirlwind'
+ very solid crowd control for a small number of opponents
+ can be used for a short time on larger numbers
+ can use other skills while 'Whirlwind' is running (it is a toggle after all, but there were some confusing reports on this one)

- rapidly drains your endurance if you are not careful
- endurance cost for 5+ opponents not sustainable, even with a dedicated build (but i still have some ideas)


Contents
a) 'Burnout'
b) On Endurance Recovery
c) 'Ageless Core Epiphany'
d) Conclusion

a) 'Burnout'
'Burnout' - from the same power pool as 'Whirlwind' negates that endurance cost for ten seconds. But I wanted it permanent for as many opponents as possible. This skill also comes with a crash that reduces your maximum endurance. As endurance regen is dependant on the maximum endurance this skill is making achieving my target of a sustained 'Whirlwind' harder.

b) On Endurance Recovery
The fuel that you need to run your build. It starts with a basic value of 100, and a recovery rate of 100% which amounts to 1,67 endurance recovery every second. So, if you use a skill that uses 5 endurance you have gained that endurance back within 3 seconds (1,67+1,67+1,67=5,01). The knobs to turn to increase that number are endurance recovery and maximum endurance. And a small number of seperate sources like the +Endurance proc from the set Performance Shifter.

b1) Raising Maximum Endurance
Using https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Set_Bonus_Comparison_Tables#Endurance_2 and a build that allows easy access to the boni i managed to raise base endurance to 127. If you also include the Accolades 'Portal Jockey' and 'The Atlas Medaillon' (both +5% maximum Endurance) you get 137 base Endurance. Incarnate Genesis passive 'Socket Core Flawless Genesis' raises it to 147.

b2) Raising Endurance Recovery Rate
The choice of class is important to increase the maximum cap for endurance recovery. I did not know that most classes are capped at 500%. A controller however is capped at 750%. The Secondary 'Time Manipulation' has a nice buff to improve regen and has a 100% uptime.

c) 'Ageless Core Epiphany'
Incarnate destiny power 'Ageless Core Epiphany' has some fineprint to it that Mids does not necessarily display correctly. While it gets my regen to a whopping 17,13 endurance per second, that part of it only lasts 10 seconds. after that it drops until it settles at a general 100% for the second half of its duration.

d) Conclusion
With this build i can manage 4-5 opponents at the same time, and it is hilarious to see them fall over. For larger parties i will need a different source of endurance regen. Maybe I ll try 'Electrical Control'. It has an pbaoe aura that keeps giving you endurance. I still like this build for a number of things and maybe use it as an idea for something different. It has two pbaoe debuff toggles that are complimentary and sustainable, they force you to go into melee range of opponents which you would do anyway if you also wanted to use the healing skill on your frontline.


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[thilenium]

A Dominator with 'Drain Psyche' from the Psionic Assault Secondary may actually sustain 'whirlwind'. just so. But it will be a while before i try that. Here is a first draft. Would be pretty much useless for anything else though.

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[Redlynne]

b) On Endurance Regeneration

The correct terminology for this does NOT include the word Regeneration (at all).
Regeneration is for green bar/health stuff.
RECOVERY is for blue bar/endurance stuff.
DO NOT confuse the two.

To quote the wiki article on the topic of Recovery:

Many players confuse Recovery with Regeneration, which refers either to the speed players regain their health or to the power set for Scrappers and Stalkers.

Additionally, for reference, the way that Regeneration and Recovery (not the same) work is like so:

• Baseline Regeneration: 1/20th of Max Health every 12 seconds
• Baseline Recovery: 1/15th of Max Endurance every 4 seconds

+Max Health and +Max Endurance both modify the front half of those equations (the 1/20th and 1/15th yield part), while +Regeneration and +Recovery (different modifiers, do NOT get them confused) operate just like Endurance Reduction and Recharge Reduction do, they increase the divisor on the second half of those equations (the 12 seconds and 4 second part).

So +100% Regeneration and +100% Recovery (for illustration purposes) do this:

• 1/20th of Max Health every 12/(1+Regeneration%/100) = 1/20th of Max Health every 12/(1+1)=6 seconds
• 1/15th of Max Endurance every 4/(1+Recovery%/100) = 1/15th of Max Endurance every 4/(1+1)=2 seconds

This means that +Regeneration and +Recovery make their respective "ticks" happen FASTER, but do not increase HOW MUCH is gained per "tick" of Regeneration or Recovery. In order to increase the "magnitude" of the "ticks" you have to increase Max Health and Max Endurance (as you correctly cited above).

Talking about Regeneration and Recovery "rates" in terms of HP/s and END/s is actually a derived result, used for simplicity of conversation and comparisons (is this better or is that better) of "throughput" into green and blue bars respectively. The HP/s and END/s framing is easier to grasp (and think about) compared to the "this much every that many seconds" highly granularized way that both actually work in practice.

For larger parties I will need a different source of endurance regen recovery/replenishment. Maybe I'll try 'Electrical Control'.

Kinetics has a similar issue when using Repel ... except that involves KnockBACK instead of Attract. So you only wind up with unsustainable endurance loss when stuck in melee range with stuff that has Knockback Protection. This is why I'm of the opinion that the smart play for use of Kinetics: Repel is to slot +Knockback enhancements into the power and nothing else ... because that "throws" Foes harder/farther away faster, reducing the loss of endurance from Foes staying in PBAoE radius quite dramatically (it also takes them longer to get up and charge back in, which also helps reduce the blue bar cost of running Repel).

However, since Whirlwind is an Attract+KnockBACK power, rather than a Repel, the only way to moderate the endurance consumption of running Whirlwind involves either QUICKLY defeating whatever Foes you've pulled into the vortex around you or being able to "replenish" your own blue bar via "stealing" endurance from the Foes you've got clustered around you.

One way of doing that would be to use an Electrical powerset (of some variety) which allows you to drain and transfer Endurance from Foes to yourself. However, I'm wondering if you might honestly want to make use of Kinetics for this purpose instead ... using Transference.

Transference has a 30 second base recharge time, but with slotting (you'll want accuracy, endurance modification and recharge) plus Hasten (and maybe even your Alpha+Destiny slotting?) you'll be able to get that recharge time down into the 8-15 second range with relatively little effort.

Transference will drain -56.25 END on a Defender, or -49.5 END on a Controller/Corruptor, from Foes (that you hit) to spawn a pseudopet that will yield +50 END on a Defender or +44 END on a Controller/Corruptor to all Allies within 20ft of the $Target of Transference. BOTH the -END drain factor AND the +END gain factor will be enhanced by Endurance Modification enhancements. This means that a "maximal yield" Alpha Enhancement choice for this purpose would be Agility (Core or Radial) which will boost BOTH Endurance Modification AND Recharge Reduction (Core offers more Endurance Modification).

I'm thinking that Kinetics: Transference, gainfully enhanced for the purpose of fueling Whirlwind, has the potential to "solve" the Endurance Expense Equation™ that you were highlighting in your OP. Just don't run Repel and Whirlwind at the same time (OR is fine, AND is bad!). After all, if you can use Kinetics: Transference to "download" +100 END every ~10 seconds from Foes ... you've just increased your sustainability with Whirlwind by +5(?) Foes in your Whirlwind 20ft PBAoE radius. Add Destiny: Ageless on top of that and you might be able to sustain Whirlwind for substantial durations while getting close to the Max Targets cap of 16.

Or you could just stick with an Electric powerset of some variety ...



Personally, if I was reaching for Kinetics as the solution to "feeding" Whirlwind, I'd also reach for Dual Pistols ... on a Defender, rather than a Corruptor ... to maximize the debuff potential and to have an attack powerset that can work in close+long range relatively effectively. I'd also consider dipping into the Sorcery Pool in order to 6-slot Enflame to synergize with Whirlwind "trapping" Foes in close (where they can all BURN TOGETHER).

[thilenium]

replaced the endurance regeneration with the endurance recovery part.

Yea, i played around with a couple of those click-replenish-endurance powers. i will try them when i have to cross that bridge. until then it will remain my dream to have cc just by 'being there' with enough recovery at all times.

[Redlynne]

until then it will remain my dream to have cc just by 'being there' with enough recovery at all times.

Yeah ... the Devs have kinda made sure that doing exactly that is neither easy nor possible when dogpiled by sufficient Foes within range, because if you could ... that's GAME OVER.

[Kismet]

Though neither of the characters I'm going to present here are Controllers, they both feature Whirlwind.

For better or worse, to make Whirlwind work as more than a momentary novelty it needs to be center of the character.

Things I've learned about Whirlwind from experimentation:

1) While +rec is important, it's the +end that really makes all the difference. I'm talking about Power Sink, Dark Consumption, Ageless Core (because it does double duty as +rec and +end), as well as the Theft of Essence proc. For the example of my Brute, Pooka, Power Surge factors in because of it's tremendous +rec. It doubles as a nice, crash free, option for capping out all resistances except Toxic.

2) Relying on Transference will always fail you eventually. Much like the promise/curse of Defense, attack powers always have a 5% chance to fail, meaning that you are guaranteed to have Whirlwind drop if you rely on a single target end gain power like Transference. (more on this below)

3) Killing enemies, especially trash, like minions and lieutenants, as quickly as possible is crucial to maintaining Whirlwind. Unfortunately, since Whirlwind needs to be core to your character if you intend on it being any more than a novelty, once it drops, you've lost a significant amount of what makes your character effective. Builds in CoH are zero sum games, meaning that you only get so many power choices and enhancement slots. What you invest into maintaining Whirlwind may have some utility beyond Whirlwind, but it's very likely to be of limited benefit outside of maintaining the mighty cyclone.

Closest to what you've built here, Thilenium, but suggested by you is an Elec/Psi Dominator that I recently built. One of the apparent advantages of Dominators over Brutes is their 50% higher Recovery cap (750% instead of 500% for Brutes).

Additionally, as you observed, Conductive Aura does grant some +rec and +regen on a per mob basis. On top of that, Static Field grants a +end bonus per mob from every mob in the area of effect. While the detailed power description offers no info on this ability, City of Data 2.0 (an HC resource) indicates that Static Field yields 1.87 End per mob/every 4 seconds. The real question with Static Field is whether that return is worth the 15.6 End cost up front.

Drain Psyche caps out on the +rec front fairly quickly because it yields +100% recovery per mob hit. When you add in Conductive Aura and what you get from Stamina, I concluded that slotting it for Recovery was a waste of slots. The far better yield, imho, is in slotting it for +regen, along with plenty of +acc and +recharge, and a Theft of Essence proc which will give you the +end that you'll really need when trying to use Whirlwind on the sorts of spawns generated by setting a mission to x8. As I have Drain Psyche slotted, it inflicts a -741.25% regen debuff on anything it hits, enough to even matter against AVs!

I've not taken this character to I-Trials, so I don't have Ageless Core available, which should make a difference in terms of +rec and +recharge.

The biggest disappointment that I've found, relative to the Brute build I'll also post, is that Power Sink for Doms/Controllers (as well as Defenders/Corruptors, for that matter) has a 2 minute recharge vs. the 1 minute recharge for Brutes/Tankers.

Much like with Pooka, I've found that slotting some damage into Whirlwind and employing AoE powers that exploit damage procs and -res procs aid greatly in making minions, LTs, and even bosses die relatively quickly. However, Fury and the damage aura available to Elec Armor are advantages that Brutes have over a Dom/Controller.

Transference: while this power theoretically appears perfect for Whirlwind, the chance of missing baked in guarantees that Whirlwind will drop. Power Sink includes no to-hit chance, and even though Dark Consumption (present in my Brute build) does have a to-hit chance, it needs to hit very few enemies to top off end. If you're losing a lot of end, you must be surrounded by enemies, right? They're all targets for Dark Consumption.

I tried Transference on a Corruptor but found that I still needed at least one more source of +end. Since the version of Power Sink available to Corruptors has a 2 minute recharge, a second alternate source was necessary, meaning Ageless Core. The problem with taking Ageless Core means that Clarion can't be taken, meaning that a single mez effect will rain on your Whirlwind parade.

Even trying Whirlwind on an /Energy Composition Guardian, which features mez prot so that they don't need Clarion, I still found the guarantee of a miss off-putting enough to make it not worth it, imho.

While a Controller can take Indomitable Will for mez protection, that locks them out of taking Power Sink. However, I'm still not convinced that on a Dominator that the 2 minute recharge on Power Sink is enough, even with Ageless Core and Drain Psyche (with the Theft of Essence proc) AND Conductive Aura to maintain Whirlwind.

Indeed, Whirlwind appears to be a cruel and demanding mistress.

Here is the best set up that I've found, so far, for Whirlwind in my Brute, Pooka:

Energize and Cardiac Core reduce the end cost of the WW toggle, but nothing can reduce the per target endurance cost. The real benefit to Energize and Cardiac is that they reduce the end cost of EVERYTHING else. I've avoided the Fighting pool as well to minimize the number of toggles I'm paying for. (Cardiac's Resistance boost aids in making the Fighting pool unnecessary)

Ageless Core Paragon, Power Surge, Power Sink, and Dark Consumption all directly give end or rec (or both in the case of Ageless). Furthermore, I've got a Theft of Essence proc in Siphon Life that also helps maintain endurance equilibrium when I wind up with 5 or 6 Bosses or EBs that refuse to die quickly.

A significant aspect of my effort to sustain WW is killing enemies fast. Brutes have Fury to increase the damage in WW. Soul Drain also give a great damage boost, but requires caution in use (more on that below). Lightning Field constantly chews away at enemies and is nicely boosted by Fury.

Additionally, I open with Dark Obliteration, which has the Ragnarok KD proc, Annihilation Proc, Witchcraft Proc and a couple damage procs. The two -res procs really help stuff die faster.

Basically, I throw Dark Obit as I jump in, follow up with Power Sink or Ageless, depending on which is up, use Siphon Life to proc ToE, and use Dark Consumption as a back up since its got a long recharge.

Power Surge is only activated when the Ageless buffs begin to drop. Ageless Core Paragon will put you at the Recovery cap for 30 seconds, so I stagger my usage of Power Surge with it.

Pitfalls:

1) Using Soul Drain immediately. Jumping into a large spawn and using SD straight off will often make WW drop. The activation time is just too long. I use SD after Ageless, Power Sink, or Dark Consumption has refilled my gas tank.

2) Unfortunately timed Hasten drop. Sometimes the -end of Hasten will short out WW.

3) Mob rich environments. UG herds (especially with a large league) can simply overwhelm Pooka's ability to sustain WW. Even popping CaBs sometimes isn't enough. The first phase of Magi can have a similar result, but there's often a Kin around with Transference to shore up end. There are places in ITF that can also be troublesome. Outside of those three problem spots, though, I find that with careful management, I can generally keep WW up.

Here is Madhouse, my Elec/Psi Dom. Perhaps with Ageless Core I'll feel better about her ability to sustain Whirlwind, but so far Pooka is much more stable, in my experience:

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Here is Pooka, whom I've generally found to be quite successful. For reference, she can sustain Whirlwind all the way through DD, excepting for the mandatory drop when Diabolique 'kills' everyone. Another point of reference would be dealing with all the pulled mobs inside TPN, where she really shines.

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[Redlynne]

Relying on Transference will always fail you eventually.

This is a very good point. The 5% (minimum) "unreliability" of powers that require a ToHit check will always (eventually) fail at the least opportune of moments.

Killing enemies, especially trash, like minions and lieutenants, as quickly as possible is crucial to maintaining Whirlwind.

I'm curious, Kismet.
Have you tried to blend Whirlwind with Enflame from the Sorcery pool in a build? I presume that there must be some sort of obstacle (limited number of pools, limited number of power picks, limited number of additional enhancement slots) that would prevent Enflame from being a practical choice (somehow) to supplement Whirlwind with as a "partner" damage dealing AoE power that would offer unique synergies.

The angle that I'm approaching this from is the assumption that faster defeats of higher ranking Foes will "save" more endurance than running Whirlwind by itself and taking longer to defeat Foes (thereby making Whirlwind cost more).

Enflame can slot Target AoE and Universal Damage sets.
So a 5-slot Annihilation (keep the -Resistance proc) could be useful. The Annihilation proc is 3.0 PPM, so if I break out the proc formula for an 8ft 360º Toggle AoE ...

• 3.0 * 10 / (60 * (0.25 + 0.75 * (1 + 8 * (11 * 360 + 540) / 40,000))) = 29.85% per $Target

... that's not looking too bad, especially if Whirlwind can only slot Knockback sets(?) and not Damage sets. That would be a -12.5% Resistance debuff for 10s in Enflame which can proc onto multiple $Targets being Attracted by Whirlwind to their OF DOOM™ ⁽⁺³⁾. Combine with an Interface: {Damage} Radial proc (for the DoT), which both Whirlwind AND Enflame would both be applying to Foes Attracted by the Whirlwind and things start looking ... synergistic.

At that point, I'd start wanting to have some sort of Rain type power to throw into the mix as well, to really BRING THE PAIN.

What's your opinion, Kismet?

[Kismet]

I've not used Enflame on Pooka or Madhouse because of the wonder of Gadgetry's Force Barrier. The survivability it offers is too great to pass up, imho. On both characters it's either a lack of power pools or enhancement slots that makes Enflame a no-go, as far as I'm concerned.

I'll admit that Enflame is an interesting possibility. However, on both Madhouse and Pooka I've got places for the Annihilation proc in Ball Lightning and Dark Obliteration, respectively. On top of Annihilation in Dark Oblit, I've got the Witchcraft proc in there to add to the -res goodness. On Madhouse, I've got Fury o' the Gladiator in Psychic Shockwave to help on that front.

As far as rain powers go, I find that on either character when facing +1s or even +2s that all the minions and LTs are dead by the time a rain power would start ticking in earnest. It might help against bosses, but rains are pretty slow. There isn't a rain option for Pooka, but Siphon Life, Midnight Grasp, Gloom, and even Smite work well to help drop bosses reasonably fast. Madhouse has her Gremlins and some fair single target attacks. On Madhouse, I value Power Sink to sustain Whirlwind more than anything a rain power might bring.

[Redlynne]

the wonder of Gadgetry's Force Barrier. The survivability it offers is too great to pass up, imho.

The +Absorb from Force Barrier can be pretty clutch at times, no argument.

it's either a lack of power pools or enhancement slots that makes Enflame a no-go, as far as I'm concerned.

I figured it was probably something along those lines, but that's definitely a case of The Demonology Is In The Details.

Ironically, this might be one of those situations where having a primary or secondary that you don't need to slot heavily could be an advantage ... since that would leave more slots available for other purposes in a build. Kinetics is a powerset that has a reputation for being something that isn't that "slot hungry" due to the scarcity of sets that can be usefully slotted into Kinetics (there are a few, but that few is a short list). But then you're back to the problem of Transference not being 100% reliable, although ... I suppose that could be partially mitigated by slotting the Theft of Essence proc into Transfusion, so there would be a backup option for gaining +End, rather than just being a One Trick Pony™ with Transference exclusively.

Which then begs the question of whether a Kinetics/Electric Defender who also has Whirlwind+Enflame, since Electric Blast would include additional options for endurance drain/transfer from Foes to Self that could help to keep Whirlwind fueled longer.

I'll admit that Enflame is an interesting possibility.

And I'll readily admit that Enflame is a "poorly researched and documented" power. It's really hard to find builds, let alone testimonials, as to the effectiveness of Enflame. Bare minimum though, it's something of an indirect damage power. Enflame doesn't directly damage the $Target, instead it puts a pseudopet burn patch under the $Target and it's the pseudopet that does the damage so long as the $Target stays in the AoE patch (kind of like with Caltrops). Which means, that to get the greatest amount of "damage throughput" from Enflame, you need to prevent Foes from running away from the damage patches ... which will usually mean either Immobilize, Hold, Attract or Repel into a corner (so they can't get away).

Hmmm ... perhaps Enflame would work better with Gravity Control (Wormhole) than it would with Whirlwind. Might be "too much movement" with Whirlwind to make Enflame truly effective, since ideally you want a cluster of Foes to "stay stuck" in an immobile patch of burn damage, which Gravity Control might be best suited for.