Author Topic: Guardians Feedback Thread  (Read 63 times)


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Guardians Feedback Thread
« on: February 11, 2021, 05:40:28 pm »
Hello all!

Welcome to our feedback thread for Guardians. Hop on into Almost Tested and try em out, give all suggestions and feedback below.


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Re: Guardians Feedback Thread
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2021, 02:07:59 am »
These are some of the things I found when looking through all of the guardian powers. You can find where I originally posted these things on discord. I did not bring over things that the devs said were intended. Hopefully I didn't forget anything.

Earth Assault:
- Stone Fist incorrectly says it has -resistance in it.
Melee Moderate DMG(Smash), Foe Minor Disorient, -Res (all)
Your stone covered fists attack swiftly for moderate damage, and may Disorient your opponent. This power can bruise an enemy, making them more vulnerable to damage. Damage: Moderate, Recharge: Fast

Fire Assault:
- Cremate might be using the wrong color for the power's icon. I am not sure for this one.

Gun Fu:
- Some pistol attacks have effects that mention standard ammo.

Hellfire Assault:
- Hellfire Smash's description says "leaves your foe set on fire" but it does no fire damage. The dot is toxic damage. The power also doesn't mention the knockback that it can do.
- Hellfire Smash has no sound.
- Hellfire Blaze's short description says "Ranged Cone, Moderate DMG(Fire/Toxic), Foe -Res" when it is a single target attack. I also am not sure if "moderate" is the correct word for it. (What the words represent have always been a bit of a mess in the live game, so this may not be a big deal.) Crack Whip says "High" when it does less damage.

Ice Assault:
- Bitter Freeze Ray says it does "High" damage in one part and "moderate" in another.
"This power can Hold your opponent frozen solid in a block of ice. The victim can be attacked and will remain frozen and helpless. After the ice thaws, the victim emerges chilled and Slowed. Damage: Moderate, Recharge: Slow"
"Ranged, High DMG(Cold), Foe Hold"

Luminous Assault:
- Luminous Smite's shorter description doesn't mention the damage that it does. It just says "Disorient, -DEF, -Fly"

Martial Assault:
I mentioned this one before, but I don't remember when I did.
- Shuriken Thrown does some toxic damage, but it is not mentioned in the description. The same is true for the dominator version

Psionic Assault:
- Telekinetic Blow does not accept knockback IOs, but it accepts knockback SOs. According to Paragon Wiki, the power accepts knockback IOs in Psionic Melee.
- Subdue does not accept Immobilize IOs, but it accepts Immobilize SOs. According to Paragon wiki, the power accepts Immobilize IOs in Psychic Blast for Defenders and Corruptors and in Psionic Assault for Dominators.
- Psychic Shockwave does not accept Stun IOs, but it accepts Stun SOs. According to Paragon Wiki, the power accepts Stun IOs for Dominators.
- Psychic Scream and Psychic Shockwave's descriptions do not mention being able to grant insight, but the smaller description says "Self +Insight." I tested them a few times. Psychic Scream was able to trigger insight, but I have not been able to trigger it with Psychic Shockwave. I don't know the percentage for it to work and did not test it too many times, so the power may still have it. This is consistent with Psionic Melee's Mass Levitate. It's larger description doesn't mention giving insight, but the shorter one still says "+Insight"
- Insight's description still has the text from Psionic Melee. Insight lockout is okay.

Radiation Assault:
- Atom Smasher does not accept Stun IOs, but it accepts Stun SOs. I checked on my Brute with Radiation Melee, and that version of Atom Smasher accepts both Stun IOs and SOs

Thorny Assault:
(This thing that I found is also in the Dominator version of the set. I don't know if the original devs intended it or if it was an error.)
- Thorn Barrage cannot accept Defense Debuff IOs or SOs. Besides thorntrops and build up, every other power in the set accepts those. This is consistent with the Dominator version of the power.

Umbral Assault:
- Umbral Smite has a small chance for a stun. It lasts way too long in PvP. It is 7.15s
- I don't know if the original devs intended this one. Shadow Bolt is missing the -jump speed and jump height, but this is consistent with the warshade version.
- Umbral Smite's shorter description does not mention the damage that it does. It just says, "Disorient, -Recharge, -SPD, -Fly"
- Essence Drain, Gravitic Emanation, Shadow Bolt, Dark Extraction, and the description for the Extracted Essence mention "Nictus" in their description. I don't know if that is intended or if the wording is supposed to be changed.

Dark Composition:
- Tar Patch's icon color does not match the rest of the set.
- Tar Patch does not take slow IOs. The corruptor and controller versions can use slow IOs.
- Shadow Fall's Description does not mention the to hit debuff resistance that it grants.
- Soul Absorption has something odd, but it may not be an error. It can accept accurate to hit debuff IOs, but not accurate heal IOs. This is consistent with the controller version, so it might be intended. (Oddly enough, the controller version accepts end cost SOs even though it costs no endurance.)

Energy Composition:
- Inertial Siphon and Fulcrum Flip have an incorrect message in the combat log. They both will say "The Fulcrum Shift has increased the damage of your attacks!"
- Fulcrum Flip cannot accept range enhancements. This might be intended. According to City of Data, Fulcrum Shift does accept them. They technically are different powers, so there is less reason for them to be consistent.

Ice Composition:
- Sleet does not accept accurate defense debuff IOs or defense debuff IOs, but the defender version of sleet does. The guardian version still accepts defense debuff SOs.

Organic Composition:
- Evolving Armor for guardians doesn't display the damage resistance debuff when looking at the numbers in character creation. I tested it in game and the debuff still works. Other ATs display the debuff when looking at the numbers.
- Environmental Modification can accept Endurance Modification IOs, when it shouldn't.
- Inexhaustible should be able to accept Endurance Modification IOs, but it cannot.

Radiation Composition:
- Particle Shielding can accept endurance modification SOs, but does not benefit from them. It is not like that for tanks.
- Ground Zero can accept accurate heal IOs while the tank version cannot. I am unsure if it is an error. The power does take accuracy, but I don't think the heal portion can miss

Reconstructive Composition:
- Fortitude Aura can accept range SOs even though it is a PBAOE buff. Unless these range enhancements can increase the radius of the buff, I don't think they do anything.

Stone Composition:
- Rocky Armor should have a comma between after the word "Confuse" in the smaller description " Toggle: Self +DEF(Smashing, Lethal, Psionic), Res(Knockdown, Immobilize, Confuse DeBuff DEF)" and in the larger description ". . . Rocky Armor also grants you protection from knockdown, immobilize, confuse and Defense DeBuffs effects. . . " (or at least I think it is supposed to have commas there. I am no expert when it comes to proper grammar.)
- Rocky Armor's description does not mention the Repel protection that the power grants.

Temporal Composition:
-  Chrono shift still has some parts to give a greater buff if a player is accelerated. Is this intended to be here? Even though guardians cannot accelerate players, it probably will work if players are buffed by time players who are able to give the accelerated buff.
- Practiced Brawler constantly makes a noise when toggled. The sound persists a few seconds after you detoggle it. I personally am fine with it, but I don't know if that will be a problem for some players. I never leveled super reflexes too far and that version's practiced brawler is a click, so I don't know if the same thing happens there.

Ice Mastery:
- Ice Storm has an error in it. I think it has containment from controllers.

Leviathan Mastery:
- Summon Corlax has a problem regarding enhancements that probably carried over from the original version of it. It can accept knockback IOs, but the Corlax Blue Hybrid has no knockback powers. It doesn't even accept knockback SOs. Another oddity is it does accept slow SOs, but it cannot accept slow IOs. It has one slow power.

Mu Mastery:
- Thunder Strike accepts endurance modification IOs and does not accept knockback IOs. However, the power does not accept endurance modification SOs and it does accept knockback SOs. According to paragon wiki, Thunder Strike in Electric Melee and in Charge Mastery for masterminds accepts knockback IOs/SOs and not endurance modification IOs/SOs. The power does have a knockback and -end component to it, so I assume it would benefit from both sets of IOs.

Primal Forces Mastery:
- The set incorrectly says "Primal Forces Mastery Dominator" when looking at a power's description and detailed info. This is not when picking a power, but when the player right clicks the power and selects "info." For example, it will say it right underneath "Melee, Extreme DMG(Energy/Smash), Foe Disorient, Self -HP" when looking at the detailed info for Energy Transfer. I just noticed this text error right now and have not checked if the previous epic powers have a similar error.
- Physical Perfection is missing a letter in the description. It says "... two other Primal Force Mastery Powers..." but it should say "Forces" instead of "Force."

Psionic Mastery:
- Psionic Tornado's shorter description says it does knockback when it does knockup. According to paragon wiki, this is consistent with Psychic Blast. However, this is not consistent with Mass Levitate, which is also available in Psionic Mastery.

Soul Mastery:
- There looks like there is an error for the "summon widow" power, but it is not isolated to Guardians. I noticed the pet accepts To-Hit Debuff IOs, but not SOs. The blood widow also doesn't benefit from To-Hit Debuff enhancements. According to paragon wiki, Scrappers and Stalkers get this power, but it summons a night widow instead. The night widow does have a power that benefits from To-Hit Debuff enhancements. It says that the Stalker version does allow To-Hit Debuff SOs. I assume the mix up from the original devs caused the potential error with the enhancements.

Debuff Resistance in Guardians and other ATs:
- I found a potential error in Organic Composition and Bio Armor. Every defensive in the set has resistance to debuffs for PvP. I believe this was put into place to help melee characters since they can easily be kited in high end PvP matches. Usually this is located in the mez protection of the set. These sets do not have this extra PvP protection for some reason. I don't know if this was intended or if the old devs just forgot to put it in. It wouldn't be the first time that aspects of a power were accidentally left out of the PvP version of a power.

- Radiation Armor and Radiation Composition are in a similar situation. They have all of the debuff resistances in PvP except for defense debuff resistance. These sets were never finished, so it makes more sense for it to be missing here.

- Stone Composition is also missing the extra defense debuff resistance in PvP, but stone armor has it. The debuff resistance was in rooted, but rooted isn't in stone composition. Different parts of it were given to different powres, but the defense debuff resistance portion was probably just accidently left out.

I can't think of any PvP balance reasons why these would be left out of the sets.

(I included these in here because I found these while looking at guardians)
- I may have found an error in the dominator version of energy assault. According to the numbers that can be seen when making a character, whirling hands does not benefit from domination.
- The corruptor epic power of greater fire sword might incorrectly have a taunt component or accept taunt enhancements. I am not sure, since I am focusing on guardians right now. I don't want to take time away from guardians to test it.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 05:57:06 pm by Nekrovile »


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Re: Guardians Feedback Thread
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2021, 04:17:30 pm »
Regarding the archetype in general, resolve is still a bit meh feeling. It's just hard to notice it doing anything, even when it actually is. This might not necessarily be a *problem*, after all it's not like vigilance or the damage buff portion of defiance are immediately visible either, but it's still worth noting. The other thing I notice about resolve is that it's a rather snowbally mechanic. You get stacks of resolve for killing things, which means that it helps you win harder if you can already kill stuff but doesn't help at all until you get those first few kills. As a result I've noticed a distinct tendency when pushing the pace solo, where I can jump into a spawn and either die before killing anything or wipe the floor with them and finish healthy depending on whether I can manage to get the first couple targets down quickly. In other words it's a mechanic that pushes encounters away from stability, it takes winning and amplifies it by giving you absorb, and it takes losing and amplifies it by not giving you any help at all. Again I'm not sure if this is a bad thing or not, and in teams it may not work out quite the same way, but I almost wonder if having resolve, in whatever form it ends up being, as a simple on-hit effect instead of triggered might work better. I still like that resolve is a team defensive thing triggered off of the guardian's offense, that seems very thematically fitting for the AT, I'm just not sure about being triggered off of kills now that I've had more experience with it.

Another general AT thing I've noted is that guardians are endurance hungry. The combination of a full slate of attacks (including epic AoEs with their usually high costs) with both armorset toggles (also often including tough/weave) *and* often-endurance-expensive support powers leaves them with high usage overall. This is not necessarily a bad thing, endurance limitations can be a valid balancing tool after all (e.g. energy composition's high costs on inertial siphon and fulcrum flip are definitely necessary IMO). What concerns me a bit is that the ability to cope with these costs does not seem even across the archetype.

Specifically, almost all guardian secondaries include some form of endurance support, with the exceptions of stone and (partially) temporal. (Temporal does have chrono shift, but between its high cost, long recharge, short duration on the recovery effect, and likely lack of room for endmod slotting in most builds this power is by far the weakest among the secondary sets from a net-endurance-over-time standpoint, to the point where I wouldn't really consider it to count.) Having experience contrasting temporal with other guardian sets this does seem to be an issue in practice - I am *constantly* out of endurance on my /temporal guardian to the point where I am converting everything to blues if I don't want to be forced to stop and wait between spawns or forgo using some of my stronger powers, where my other guardians also frequently run low but have the tools to bounce back. On the other hand temporal is very strong when you do have all your abilities in play, I'm just not sure I like this form of balancing is all.

For specific (secondary) sets, I've tried out fire, energy, organic, and temporal composition with various primaries.

Temporal is very strong both defensively and offensively. I paired it with umbral for the heal and ended up basically never needing it, because between the native defense, farsight, the -tohit and -dam in time's juncture, and the absorb in PB I almost never actually took significant damage. Given that it also brings good offensive support with slowed response and chrono shift and provides most of its benefits to the team as well between debuffs and team buffs, I wonder if this set might perhaps be slightly over-tuned. As noted above it's also even more endurance hungry than most, so I personally might consider de-tuning a little bit in exchange for some reduced endurance costs. Perhaps as a start knock the defense in farsight back from scale 1.25 to scale 1 (which I think should be done to the regular version of the set too TBH), and then drop the endurance cost on time's juncture to 0.3 end/s or something like that.

Organic and energy I rate fairly similarly, namely strong but I'm not as worried about them. Energy is powerful but is held back by basically needing to never ever miss with transference. Organic is beefy but also clicky and reactive to stay alive. I would guess they're on the high side of the average performance level of guardian secondaries, for sure, but I wouldn't consider them as needing significant changes.

Fire is, frankly, pretty disappointing. It's extremely squishy and doesn't feel like it has enough upsides to make up for that. Compared to fire armor it is even *weaker* defensively - at least fire armor has an above-average heal - and doesn't bring any of the set's personal offense. Compared to thermal it loses almost all of that set's defensive contributions, and I don't think the team offense that's left is enough to make up for it. Melt Armor is arguably the worst -resistance power available to guardians, with either the worst or tied for worst -resistance value, radius, and recharge. (Heat loss has a longer recharge, but is only partially a -res power and is extremely powerful in other ways.) It's not *bad*, but it's not as good as what other sets get either. Reforge is alright, but is actually not a very big buff on guardian numbers - compare to Overgrowth, which is 66% stronger with close to the same uptime and has an endurance discount as well. And Heat Exhaustion is a fine power that is simply irrelevant 95% of the time. Ultimately this set is extremely squishy on a personal level, brings minimal team defense, and its offense is arguably worse than at least a couple other sets and IMO definitely not strong enough to make up for it overall.

I think fire definitely needs work. One simple possible change would be to knock the recharge on Soothing Flames down to 12s or so, mimicing how fire armor's Healing Flames has a faster recharge than something like Reconstruction. This would help somewhat with both the personal squishiness and minimal team defense issues, but would still be held back by animation time and endurance usage. I don't think this would be nearly enough by itself, but it could help. Another option might be to swap out the junk power of temperature protection for something else - not sure *what*, exactly, and one would want to be careful to abide by the rule of not obsoleting either parent set, but it's an obvious candidate for change if need be. And lastly, well, I already sent in that overly-wordy proposal for a replacement/modification for Power of the Phoenix, but I want to elaborate a bit on how and why I think that would be a particularly good fit here. Looking back at fire armor, that set is also squishy, and so Rise of the Phoenix is a particularly well-fitting and thematic addition there - not only giving the set an option to recover from defeat, but even to turn it around and *use* that defeat to blast the fuck out of the baddies and fulfill the set's theme of offense. Guardian fire composition, as it stands, is even squishier than fire armor but yet is missing the tool that set has to deal with that. And the set is also currently not really as high on offense or defense as it IMO needs to be to make up for its drawbacks relative to thermal or other guardian sets, and swapping out Power of the Phoenix for the Phoenix Renewal power I proposed also gives the set something that would be a big splashy offensive and defense tool when you're not using it as an omni-rez. And of course it's also just thematic as fuck for a fire set. (Yes I know I'm probably starting to sound like a broken record about this idea, but darnit I really like it. ^^)

I'm sure there's more I could go on about (like primaries), but this is probably enough for now and I'll probably come back later. But yeah, fire composition totally should get that Phoenix Renewal power, yo. ^^
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 04:22:46 pm by MuonNeutrino »