Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 09:33 AMThat is when I discovered that Night Widow kind of... doesn't have a reason to exist. Everything a Night Widow can do, a Fortunata can do better.
I wouldn't be quite so quick to come to that conclusion.
City of Data v1.0 (internet archived):
LINKCity of Data v1.0 Arachnos Widow:
LINKMy reason for pulling these links is because they do not include any modifications by Homecoming and represent the legacy/LIVE server (2012) stats for cross comparison review.
Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 09:33 AMBuild Up, which is mutually exclusive to the base kit's Follow Up (both are good, this will largely come down to personal preference).
One really major difference here is utility/use cases between these two powers.
Follow Up:
- Range: 7 ft
- Recharge: 12 seconds
- Target: Foe
- +10% ToHit for 10s (after 0.2 second delay)
- +30% Dmg(All Types) for 10s (after 0.2 second delay)
Build Up:
- Range: -
- Recharge: 90 seconds
- Target: Self
- +20% ToHit for 10s
- +80% Dmg(All Types) for 10s
The major MAJOR difference between these two powers is that Follow Up is an attack that requires you to hit something. Follow Up CAN be used for an auto-crit out of Hidden status, but then you aren't getting the +30% bonus damage out of Hide on the auto-crit. Furthermore, to my knowledge, Follow Up is not self-stackable (it overwrites any remaining duration) so it's not like you can have 2x Follow Up buff stacks going on simultaneously (for a +20%/+60% combination). Another factor is that Follow Up is a melee damaging attack, so you really want to be slotting it for melee damage, which makes things like a 6-slot Gaussian's Set impractical in this power.
By contrast, you CAN use Build Up on yourself for all that lovely bonus damage and THEN still auto-crit out of Hidden status if you want to (with the +80% bonus damage applied to the crit). This means that Build Up works "better" as an alpha striker (self) buff that does not require attacking a (melee) $Target, which in turn makes Build Up more suitable as a buff option for a set of attack powers that concerns itself more with range than with melee. A 6-slot Gaussian's set in this power is quite practical (if you have the slots available for it, that is).
In my estimation, Follow Up is "better" (in the sense of having more uptime) if you're playing in melee with more of a Scrapperlock mindset and playstyle. You can keep the damage buff "up" most of the time so long as there are Foes to smack around in melee. By contrast, Build Up is DEFINITELY the way to go for a more "range based" powerset and playstyle, or simply one where you want to be damage buffed for your opening attacks (from Hide for auto-crits or not) and want a more "bursty" type of playstyle rather than a "steady stream" of melee buffing type of play.
So for argument and illustration purposes, let's say that you wanted to create a "Ranged Widow" who eschews the melee fighting style in favor of ranged attacks (much like how the Huntsman eschews Mace/Backpack attacks in favor of using the Arachnos Rifle). What happens?
- Poison Dart (single target): 4s recharge, 80ft range
- Dart Burst (30º cone): 8s recharge, 50ft radius (enhanceable!)
- Mental Blast (single target): 4s recharge, 80ft range
- Smoke Grenade (target AoE): 15s recharge, 110ft range, 35ft radius, 60s perception debuff cancels when damaged
- Psychic Scream (30º cone): 16s recharge, 60ft radius (enhanceable!)
Looking at the Smoke Grenade, I get the feeling that it is SERIOUSLY underestimated, for the reason that you (almost) cite ... it's not build defining. However, for a Ranged Widow it most certainly CAN BE.
Why?
Because it allows you to convert "parallel threats" into sequential ones, where YOU get to choose the order of operations to defeat your opposition. Remember, Foes who cannot perceive you cannot target you ... and thus cannot attack you. This means that you can (effectively) "range debuff" your opponents such that only 1 of them (the one you're damaging) can attack you at a time ... at which point, all you have to do is stay out of melee range and you're already "winning" on the protection front.
The downside to this strategy is that it doesn't work all that well in groups (where AoE is getting thrown around like party favors). As soon as a mob affected by Smoke Grenade gets damaged, the Perception debuff drops, so AoE damage is "not your friend" with respect to deployment of this power. BUT ... it does mean that it becomes possible to pick groups apart with single target attacks after using Smoke Grenade (if you've got the patience and/or cooperation to do so). Perhaps a better way to think of how Smoke Grenade "ought to be used" is more like a (poor man's) AoE Placate that enables a DIVIDE TO CONQUER playstyle ... and if your attacks are biased in favor of range rather than melee, you're maximizing your own advantages in contrast to the disadvantages you're heaping upon your Foes.
With enough global recharge from set bonuses (Hasten, et al.) you can actually have a reasonably decent single target ranged attack chain using JUST Poison Dart and Mental Blast. Look at the Arcanatimes for both powers.
- Poison Dart: 1.716s
- Mental Blast: 1.848s
Both powers have a 4s recharge time. Therefore:
- 4 / 1.716 = 2.3310
- 4 / 1.848 = 2.1645
Which means that with a +133.10% or +116.45% global recharge buff (of which perma-Hasten can be +70% and Mental Training adds another +20%) you can simply alternate these 2 single target attacks indefinitely with no downtime, if you wanted to.
With "a lot of global recharge" you can start throwing around Smoke Grenades REPEATABLY in combat ... which means that even if there's
lots of AoE damage getting thrown around (liberally), Foes will still (momentarily) lose Perception of their $Target(s) and thus will need to "reacquire" targeting on You (and your Allies) after they get damaged again. The phrase "wash, rinse, repeat" comes to mind with what you can do with LOTS of global recharge combined with Smoke Grenade, because you can just keep throwing the debuff at them "fast enough" to be noticeable in sustained combat. So it would behave more like a "soft mez" (kind of like a knockdown or a sleep) rather than a "hard mez" (like a hold), but it could have some pretty seriously disruptive implications, both in solo and group play, once you learn the dynamics of how Smoke Grenade ACTUALLY works (and how to take maximum advantage!).
Furthermore, you can Frankenslot the Poison Dart and Psychic Scream cone attack powers with 2-slot Rolling Barrage (+7.5% Range to all powers set bonus) and 2x HO: Damage/Range enhancements (to maximize the cone radius!) leaving 2 slots for procs (-Resistance debuffing always being a good choice!).
Throw either Hover/Fly or Mystic Flight into the mix for "3D keep away" opportunism and you can really stack the deck in your favor, relative to playing a Melee Widow.
You then have a 2x single + 2x cone set of attacks, which then radically prunes down the number of attack powers that you need to find slots for ... which then means you can redistribute a LOT of slots to other aspects of your build plan, severely advantaging your play in
other ways relative to your peers.
My point being, there is plenty of unrealized potential in the
Night Dart Widow ... just like playing a Huntsman (whether HuntsBane or HuntsCrab
bermind) is a different way to play a Soldier of Arachnos. The playstyle may be similar, but there are important differences that yield extremely noticeable changes in HOW YOU PLAY the character.
Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 09:33 AMMind Link (see Fortunata)
You know what I noticed about the differences between Night Widow and Fortunata with respect to Mind Link?
The recharge time(s) ...
- Mind Link (Night Widow): 240s recharge, +5% ToHit for 90s, +30% Res(Psionic) for 90s, +10% All Defense Types, All Defense Positions for 90s
- Mind Link (Fortunata): 300s, +5% ToHit for 90s, +30% Res(Psionic) for 90s, +10% All Defense Types, All Defense Positions for 90s
That makes a difference in how "perma-able" the two branches are, with respect to this power.
- 240 / 90 = 2.6667
- 300 / 90 = 3.3333
Therefore, a Night Widow needs +166.67% global recharge buffing to make this power perma-able, and of that amount, +70% can come from Hasten and +20% can come from Mental Training ... leaving a +76.67% global recharge "demand" from set bonuses in order to make this Mind Link perma (for self and others).
A Fortunata needs 233.33% global recharge buffing to make this power perma-able, and of that amount, +70% can come from Hasten ... leaving a 163.33% global recharge "demand" from set bonuses in order to make this Mind Link perma (for self and others) ... GOOD LUCK with that. Incidentally, I'm thinking that the fact that the amount of global recharge needed being 2.13x as much for a Fortunata as a Night Widow is
not an accident, nor a coincidence. Basically, Night Widows are "better" at Mind Linking (for coordinated defense) than their Fortunata counterparts.
Just because the powers LOOK the same, doesn't mean that they integrate or "build" the same @ Level 50 in a completed build. There are important implications in those differences, especially since Mind Link doesn't accept Recharge enhancements (so you have to use global recharge factors in order to reach perma-able status).
Quote from: EDekar on May 06, 2025, 09:33 AMI've seen more Regeneration characters than I have Night Widows
I know that the
Dart Widow build has been tried before (remarkably successfully!) (albeit, not by me, I've never played one) and thoroughly enjoyed, but is almost unheard of in the wider community. If you're wondering how a Night Widow "might be better/more fun to play" than a Fortunata, you might want to give the
really oddball build of the Dart Widow a try and see what you come up with. I'm thinking that Mystic Flight (enabling access to Spirit Ward, Enflame and Rune of Protection) combined with Smoke Grenade could enable some particularly tricky 3D maneuvering/positioning potential that would be extremely unfair to Foes. Also, DEFINITELY go for Combat Training (all) + Tactical Training (all) + Leadership (all toggles+vengeance!) and you'll be a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield ... because EVERYONE AROUND YOU gets BETTER at what they do in your presence, just by the fact of you Being There™!
At the very least, it would be something WELL OFF the well worn and trodden down path of the Blaster/Offender/Corruptor/Soldier route and would be something remarkably unique for you to play.
I'd do it myself, but Redside Zones are entirely too "fatal crash to desktop" RELIABLE for me to even entertain the notion right now.
